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2018 Mustang Manual vs. Auto--MotorTrend

Angry50

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i dont get why there is any debate between auto. i think most people know the auto is faster, at least in a straight line. If you enjoy manual more then great. if you do roady course or auto cross i understand getting a manual. i think ford did a good job of making the auto a fun experience for daily driving. I keep seeing the claims that a pro driver in a manual on a tire could run 11s.. please. i guess there is no pro driver alive. I always laugh at how many people claim they have "driver mod" but any time a manual is slow it needs a "driver mod". there are too many benefits for the manual to overcome.

side note. sometimes i wonder if its a hidden agenda to rid the manuals. if they continue to make them weaker and less people buy them. Didnt manuals used to be stronger and faster? now its the other way.
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Ace

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Remember that the refresh got way longer gears for the MT for better fuel economy. The AT clearly got the besser gear ratios for a fast acceleration from a complete stand.

2015 V8 MT:
3.657
2.430
1.686
1.315
1.00
0.651

2018 V8 MT:
3.24
2.10
1.42
1.00
0.81
0.62

2018 V8 AT:
4.70
2.99
2.15
1.77
1.52
1.28
1.00
0.85
0.69
0.64
 

Dominant1

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Its the age old debate, manual owners think that auto drivers are soft for not wanting to row the gears daily. The truth is, there have been and still are so many issues with this mt-82. The sensible folks here will not take a chance on the mt-82 being reliable, especially when adding power to it. The only other choice is an auto, which has proven to be faster and more reliable even after adding big power. Now if Ford went with a tremec transmission as oem equipment, alot more folks would have bought one.. all my mustangs were manual until my current one. i had an 04 tremec, 2010 tremec, and a 2012 mt-82, which was replaced by a tremec magnum. I actually prefer manuals over autos but no way i will ever own another mt-82 trans....We are suppose to learn from our bad experiences not repeat them...
 

Silver Bullitt

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i dont get why there is any debate between auto. i think most people know the auto is faster, at least in a straight line. If you enjoy manual more then great. if you do roady course or auto cross i understand getting a manual. i think ford did a good job of making the auto a fun experience for daily driving. I keep seeing the claims that a pro driver in a manual on a tire could run 11s.. please. i guess there is no pro driver alive. I always laugh at how many people claim they have "driver mod" but any time a manual is slow it needs a "driver mod". there are too many benefits for the manual to overcome.

side note. sometimes i wonder if its a hidden agenda to rid the manuals. if they continue to make them weaker and less people buy them. Didnt manuals used to be stronger and faster? now its the other way.
My cammed M6 GTO w/ 3.47's would run 12.3x w/ a 1.8 60' trapping about 112. That was on a 275 dr putting about 415 to the wheels and a dry weight of about 3,800 lbs. I don't see what's so unbelievable about running an 11.9x with an M6 w/ 3.73's and a 325 dr putting an additional 25hp to the wheels and cutting a 1.7 60' trapping about 115. And, I'm certainly no "pro driver". Can you help me out here?
 

Norm Peterson

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i think most people know the auto is faster, at least in a straight line.
It wasn't always that way.

Used to be that driver involvement and best straight line performance both came with the MT.

These days, debate happens because that is no longer true, and while straight line performance is easily quantified, the same cannot be said for the subjectives. IOW, there's no single way to compare gains in performance against losses in involvement/satisfaction of getting it right all by yourself that works for everybody. Individually, sure, and that's where the debates come from. Individuals.

Plus, perhaps, there's a greater willingness even among enthusiasts to accept having more of the little tasks that make up "driving" done for them by electronic and hydraulic automation.

I don't think the "agenda" is very well hidden. The conventional 3-pedal MT is all but gone from anything that could be considered a family sedan, to say nothing about pickups, SUVs, crossovers, and minivans.


Norm
 

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Angry50

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My cammed M6 GTO w/ 3.47's would run 12.3x w/ a 1.8 60' trapping about 112. That was on a 275 dr putting about 415 to the wheels and a dry weight of about 3,800 lbs. I don't see what's so unbelievable about running an 11.9x with an M6 w/ 3.73's and a 325 dr putting an additional 25hp to the wheels and cutting a 1.7 60' trapping about 115. And, I'm certainly no "pro driver". Can you help me out here?

415whp to 425 whp is not 25 more whp. how much torque did that GTO have? you act as if no one has tried yet...
Evan Smith of MMFF fame ran a 12.20 which i believe is the standing record for the manual. which from what i can tell most people rank him high as a driver.

It wasn't always that way.

Used to be that driver involvement and best straight line performance both came with the MT.

These days, debate happens because that is no longer true, and while straight line performance is easily quantified, the same cannot be said for the subjectives. IOW, there's no single way to compare gains in performance against losses in involvement/satisfaction of getting it right all by yourself that works for everybody. Individually, sure, and that's where the debates come from. Individuals.

Plus, perhaps, there's a greater willingness even among enthusiasts to accept having more of the little tasks that make up "driving" done for them by electronic and hydraulic automation.

I don't think the "agenda" is very well hidden. The conventional 3-pedal MT is all but gone from anything that could be considered a family sedan, to say nothing about pickups, SUVs, crossovers, and minivans.


Norm
ya i remember even as late as the early 2000s manuals were the only way to go for you common enthusiast but now days with manual issues and auto speed its difficult to choose a manual.. at least for me.
 

nastang87xx

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Automatics are more energy efficient now too. 8 - 10% drivetrain loss is not uncommon. The ZF8 consistently returns mid 600's for the Hellcat. Because it's EFFICIENT. 20% drivetrain loss through an automatic is antiquated thinking and frankly, antiquated reality.
 

Silver Bullitt

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415whp to 425 whp is not 25 more whp. how much torque did that GTO have? you act as if no one has tried yet...
Evan Smith of MMFF fame ran a 12.20 which i believe is the standing record for the manual. which from what i can tell most people rank him high as a driver.
Torque in the GTO was <400, although it was definitely earlier in the power band. Any reference that I've made to 11's said tire and a tune I believe. Stock it should be around 425 from what I've seen. I'd hope a tune would at least be worth 15hp. I doubt that 12.20 was on a 325 dr, most likely the stock PS4's. I just don't understand why you believe it's so unreasonable. I'll concede all day long the auto could be 1/2 sec faster. I'm not trying to compete with the auto. I'm just one of those folks who wouldn't even consider an auto in a car like this. I might make a couple dozen passes in it throughout its life. My goal is to be in the 11's. The majority of my wheel time I'll be enjoying shifting gears. That's just me.
 

millhouse

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Automatics are more energy efficient now too. 8 - 10% drivetrain loss is not uncommon. The ZF8 consistently returns mid 600's for the Hellcat. Because it's EFFICIENT. 20% drivetrain loss through an automatic is antiquated thinking and frankly, antiquated reality.
I'm sorry, this simply isn't true. A manual transmission is always going to dyno higher than an auto. Think about it…a manual transmission in gear is locked. The engine is rotating the clutch and flywheel as well as the transmission shafts as one unit. The only losses associated are frictional and rotating mass. An auto will be rotating the torque converter and pumping fluid through the valve body. The torque converter itself won’t lock until it reaches a specified load limit. More friction, pumping losses and more rotating mass.

The real benefit in today’s auto’s is the sheer abundance of gears, the torque convert launch and the lightning quick shifts. The ability to stay in the powerband far outweighs the extra power losses.

An example. This is corvette comparison, but it’s still valid.
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Angry50

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Torque in the GTO was <400, although it was definitely earlier in the power band. Any reference that I've made to 11's said tire and a tune I believe. Stock it should be around 425 from what I've seen. I'd hope a tune would at least be worth 15hp. I doubt that 12.20 was on a 325 dr, most likely the stock PS4's. I just don't understand why you believe it's so unreasonable. I'll concede all day long the auto could be 1/2 sec faster. I'm not trying to compete with the auto. I'm just one of those folks who wouldn't even consider an auto in a car like this. I might make a couple dozen passes in it throughout its life. My goal is to be in the 11's. The majority of my wheel time I'll be enjoying shifting gears. That's just me.
ok so you want an mt82 with a tune and a tire to see if it can hit 11s? i thought we were talking stock for stock. or event mt82 on a tire only vs stock auto.. and id say its possible for a tune/tire only m6 car to hit 11s maybe 11.9x but it wouldnt be common.. probably less common than a stock auto hitting 11s.
 

nastang87xx

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I'm sorry, this simply isn't true. A manual transmission is always going to dyno higher than an auto. Think about it…a manual transmission in gear is locked. The engine is rotating the clutch and flywheel as well as the transmission shafts as one unit. The only losses associated are frictional and rotating mass. An auto will be rotating the torque converter and pumping fluid through the valve body. The torque converter itself won’t lock until it reaches a specified load limit. More friction, pumping losses and more rotating mass.

The real benefit in today’s auto’s is the sheer abundance of gears, the torque convert launch and the lightning quick shifts. The ability to stay in the powerband far outweighs the extra power losses.

An example. This is corvette comparison, but it’s still valid.
Please reference where I made any comparison to a manual vs automatic dyno number. No where. I'm specifically talking about automatic transmission performance. Try comprehending and staying focused before you spout off.

Explain 640 RWHP ZF8 Hellcats, 410 RWHP 10R80 '18 Mustang GT's, and 575 RWHP 10L90 ZL1's. These are CONSISTENT ballpark numbers.
 

Silver Bullitt

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ok so you want an mt82 with a tune and a tire to see if it can hit 11s? i thought we were talking stock for stock. or event mt82 on a tire only vs stock auto.. and id say its possible for a tune/tire only m6 car to hit 11s maybe 11.9x but it wouldnt be common.. probably less common than a stock auto hitting 11s.
Yup. Sub 12 sec with tune and tire only would be pretty sweet to me. Not to mention with the square 305 setup and stock suspension what a blast it is in the twisties. A pretty good value for less than $39K if you ask me. I do wish it had the Tremec instead of the Getrag though.
 

w3rkn

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The 20+ hp manual trans only $46,595 Bullitt is clearly not going to be enough to match the acceleration of a base $37,695 GT with the A10.

Ouch.


That A10 can't guess the gear it needs to be in, to powerslid around a street corner, does it...?

A10 is fast, but you loose control of your clutch and gearing.
 

millhouse

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Please reference where I made any comparison to a manual vs automatic dyno number. No where. I'm specifically talking about automatic transmission performance. Try comprehending and staying focused before you spout off.
Take a look at the title of the thread my friend. Nowhere did you say you were comparing auto transmissions of today to those of yesterday. Here is what you said....

Automatics are more energy efficient now too. 8 - 10% drivetrain loss is not uncommon.
More energy efficient than what? The title of the thread is “auto vs manual”. If you don’t want unnecessary rhetoric, you should probably clarify your statements if the differ from the topic.
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