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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

4V Mayhem

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It's funny, even corvette owners argue on this very subject. What you fail to realize is, in today’s terms, performance is not the only metric of a supercar. Does it fit the performance category? Sure. Does it fit the exotic category? Hell no it doesn’t, nor does it fit the “unobtainable for the blue collar worker” category. Hell, I could go down to my local chevy dealer and instantly get a Z06 if I wanted….and I (by the American standard) am by no means a rich man.

Here you go, just one of the few of many….many discussions on the corvette forum about it. Even they can’t agree that any corvette will truly be considered a “supercar”

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/3994433-a-supercar.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3482461-c7-supercar.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/4077945-is-the-z06-a-legit-supercar-2.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-z06-discussion/2521376-zo6-supercar.html
So forum talk is the say all end all now? I just posted several reliable trustworthy official sources including the DuPont Registry which all list the Z06 and/or ZR1 as supercars and your reply is forum posts of owners arguing over the term? That is your reply? I could post up way more sources that have these 2 cars listed as Supercars if you want.
The corvette is and always will be known a midlife crises car….or a poor mans Porsche. In the end, GM will eventually make something that beats a Ford GT…but it will still be considered inferior and (unlike the GT) will depreciate until Billy Bob that works down at the Wallmarts can afford it. I’m sorry if this upsets you, but the Z06 will never be as desirable. It’s not even as desirable as a GT350R.
A poor man's Porsche? Ok. We're not talking standard Vettes son. We're talking about the Z06 and the ZR1. There is nothing poor about either of those cars. And there is nothing poor about the standard Vette either for that matter. Let's put aside your obsession with thinking that you're hurting people's feelings because you obviously aren't. Let's act like rational adults who can hold an intelligent conversation without the typical internet insults. There are people who prefer Corvettes over Porsches just like some people prefer the GT350 over a Vette. But to downplay it's performance makes you no better than the C6 forum crowd that you constantly put down. Now maybe this is all some attempt to piss them off. Maybe you think they're reading your comments and getting mad. Maybe you think they're over here trolling. I don't know. If that is the case and you do think that way then there is no way we can have a realistic conversation on this matter. The Z06 and ZR1 are both Supercars. They are defined by multiple official sources as such. They outperform the Shelby. The base Z06 is right around the price of a similarly optioned GT350R yet the Z06 will outperform the Shelby. These cars are nothing to scoff at. Your hatred aside, you have to acknowledge facts and those are facts. You don't have to like it, you don't have to like the other forum members, whatever. But you can't just go around pouting and saying whatever you want simply because you don't like the car. If you can't respond maturely and realistically to this then this conversation is over.
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millhouse

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Who cares? Is that why you buy a car? To make sure everyone around you has a hard on for it?

Guess what? Most guys I know that actually track cars don't even go to cars and coffee. The real show is at the track.
If I wanted a car that everyone around me has a hard on for, I wouldn't have bought a mustang.

So forum talk is the say all end all now? I just posted several reliable trustworthy official sources including the DuPont Registry which all list the Z06 and/or ZR1 as supercars and your reply is forum posts of owners arguing over the term? That is your reply? I could post up way more sources that have these 2 cars listed as Supercars if you want.

You know what, I came up with a what the corvette z06 really is....the poor mans supercar. It's almost a supercar, but doesn't fit the elite bill because it's far too affordable and is far less botique. Sit in a real supercar...and then sit in a Z06. When you're in the Z06, you know it's cheaper.

A poor man's Porsche? Ok. We're not talking standard Vettes son. We're talking about the Z06 and the ZR1. There is nothing poor about either of those cars. And there is nothing poor about the standard Vette either for that matter.
Let's put something into perspective for you. 2018 Z06 MSRP: $79,495
2018 Yukon Denali 4x4 MSRP: $70,495 2018 Cadillac Escalade 4x4 MSRP: 78,990.

Is the Z06 cheap? No, but let's not pretend it's unobtainable. Hell, a fully optioned convertible MY18 mustang is about the same price as a base level corvette.


But to downplay it's performance makes you no better than the C6 forum crowd that you constantly put down.
Why don't you go back and quote anywhere I have "downplayed" the corvettes performance. Good luck on that one chief.

The Z06 and ZR1 are both Supercars. They are defined by multiple official sources as such.
Just because you cite buisnessweek and detroit news articles does not mean the Z06 is a supercar...sorry kid. Nice try. Ask 100 corvette owners if the Z06 is a supercar and you'll get a 50/50 split. Ask a Ferrari or Lamborghini owner and they'll laugh at your face. "Supercar" and "affordable" are not compatible, sorry.

They outperform the Shelby. The base Z06 is right around the price of a similarly optioned GT350R yet the Z06 will outperform the Shelby. These cars are nothing to scoff at. Your hatred aside, you have to acknowledge facts and those are facts. You don't have to like it, you don't have to like the other forum members, whatever. But you can't just go around pouting and saying whatever you want simply because you don't like the car. If you can't respond maturely and realistically to this then this conversation is over.
Good job, you have just compared the Z06 (a non supercar) to the GT350 (another non-supercar).
 

Baron95

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Can we get back to discussing performance, please?

The Ford GT and the ZR1 are in the same performance category, but they are not in the same exclusivity category. The ZR1 may be slightly faster (or not), but the Ford GT is *a lot* more exclusive.

Similarly, the GT350 and SS1LE are in the same performance category, but not in the same exclusivity category. The GT350 is a special car (based on Ford's goals, pricing and production limits). The SS1LE is not (and neither will be the PP1/PP2).

There has to be a thread on "exclusivity", "specialness", "collectability" that you guys can discuss this stuff. This thread should be about track performance - "track times compared" (title).
 

4V Mayhem

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You know what, I came up with a what the corvette z06 really is....the poor mans supercar. It's almost a supercar, but doesn't fit the elite bill because it's far too affordable and is far less botique. Sit in a real supercar...and then sit in a Z06. When you're in the Z06, you know it's cheaper.
Affordable? Affordable to whom? How many people can afford a base model car that MSRPs at $80K?? For that matter how many people can afford a car that costs even half that? The GT350R MSRP was like $65K. How many people could even afford that? BTW, the GT350R is listed as a Supercar also. Were you aware of that? DO you agree with it? Just curious.
Let's put something into perspective for you. 2018 Z06 MSRP: $79,495
2018 Yukon Denali 4x4 MSRP: $70,495 2018 Cadillac Escalade 4x4 MSRP: 78,990.

Is the Z06 cheap? No, but let's not pretend it's unobtainable. Hell, a fully optioned convertible MY18 mustang is about the same price as a base level corvette..
The Yukon Denali and Escalade are high end full size luxury 4WD SUVs with more options than most of us know exist. How is the price a comparison at all? And again, how many people can afford a Z06? Realistically. I'm not saying it is unobtainable. Obviously some people can afford it. But in all reality, if you financed it and put $15,000 on it you'd have a car payment of around $1100 a month. Again, how many people have enough money to afford it or justify it or could even get financing for it? And sure, a fully options GT convertible will be over $50K by a lot. How many people here can afford that? That is GT350 pricing and I didn't quite see lots of people buying them up.
Just because you cite buisnessweek and detroit news articles does not mean the Z06 is a supercar...sorry kid. Nice try. Ask 100 corvette owners if the Z06 is a supercar and you'll get a 50/50 split. Ask a Ferrari or Lamborghini owner and they'll laugh at your face. "Supercar" and "affordable" are not compatible, sorry.
Again. I posted several links all from reliable sources saying that it was. I'm not talking about internet opinion or what you call "affordability" or urban legend or folklore. It is listed as a Supercar by a variety of different sources each of whom are well established as reliable and trustworthy and each of whom can be considered officiates of this type of information. YOU don't want to acknowledge that. And this is going nowhere. So I will concede that you personally don't think it is nor do you want it to be. But it is defined as such.
Good job, you have just compared the Z06 (a non supercar) to the GT350 (another non-supercar).
Ok...??
 

Trackaholic

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1 - Have fun, take short breaks from boring work.

2 - Discuss things I love - affordable performance cars that do great on track days.

3 - Try to gain insight to the question of "how is the PP2 likely to perform vs the SS1LE" as I "need" to buy a new track car by early April.

4 - Try to shame Ford into joining more fully the glorious quest (started by GM) of giving consumers like me "ready to track" affordable cars.

5 - Apparently annoy people (like you ?) who are so defensive about Ford's shortcomings that they need to constantly question the motives of those who bring data to the discussion.
My impression of your reasons:

1. True

2. Maybe. Seems like you are mostly here to bash the Mustang and hype the 1LE.

3. B.S. You’ve made it quite clear that the PP2 is crap compared to the 1LE. I don’t think you really care about the PP2 at all. Just buy the 1LE already!

4. AHA! This I believe. I especially like how you still find a way to hype GM and dig at Ford.

5. Your actions are pretty clear. Not surprised that some are getting annoyed.

I look forward further discussion and data :-)

-T
 

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Trackaholic

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Can we get back to discussing performance, please?

The Ford GT and the ZR1 are in the same performance category, but they are not in the same exclusivity category. The ZR1 may be slightly faster (or not), but the Ford GT is *a lot* more exclusive.

Similarly, the GT350 and SS1LE are in the same performance category, but not in the same exclusivity category. The GT350 is a special car (based on Ford's goals, pricing and production limits). The SS1LE is not (and neither will be the PP1/PP2).

There has to be a thread on "exclusivity", "specialness", "collectability" that you guys can discuss this stuff. This thread should be about track performance - "track times compared" (title).
I suspect the 1LE will end up being more exclusive than the GT350.

-T
 

jake_zx2

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[MENTION=24829]jake_zx2[/MENTION]
The Ford GT specifically is only 200 lbs lighter than the Z06/ZR1, understeers at the limit (which is astounding for a mid-rear engined car), has brakes that didn't inspire confidence (all Randy's words), middling skid pad and figure 8 numbers, etc.
well, this officially gives me justification in not believing that you really are an hpde instructor. How can you be so highly qualified and NOT know that bias toward understeer is preferable in a performance car and that’s mid engined cars are prone to understeer? Hell, the Ferrari 458 specials I drove at Nring understeered if I didn’t trail brake correctly (difficult learning curve when you’re used to driving FR cars).
It is not a word class performance for a $450K purpose built sports car. It simply isn't. Maybe partly because Ford didn't challenge itself to put it on the Nring to benchmark against their peers.
[COLOR=“red”]How is it not world class? It’s been described as one of the greatest supercars in the segment[/COLOR]
Whatever you say about the Nring, the value in it is that a car needs to maintain track pace for 7+min, without overheating brakes, transmission, tires, engine, diff, etc. That is the value.
thats really not hard to do...
For example, a PP2 (no coolers) may very well do a decent lap time at Lime Rock Park (cold and short), but fail miserably at the Nring once it gets to the 5 min mark and everything starts to overheat. It is a valuable test, that shows "this car can keep it up for 7 or 8 min".
my mustang made it 7 or 8 minutes with mild street/track pads, upgraded suspension, 275 tires (barely DOT approved, and actually illegal in Germany) and absolutely nothing else, and had absolutely no problems with heat after 5 laps or so. Only time I had issues was when I cheaped out on brake pads and they disintegrated after turn 15 or so. Again, Nürburgring is not a great test of a car’s ability, it’s a test of a driver’s ability
 

jake_zx2

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Can we get back to discussing performance, please?

The Ford GT and the ZR1 are in the same performance category, but they are not in the same exclusivity category. The ZR1 may be slightly faster (or not), but the Ford GT is *a lot* more exclusive.

Similarly, the GT350 and SS1LE are in the same performance category, but not in the same exclusivity category. The GT350 is a special car (based on Ford's goals, pricing and production limits). The SS1LE is not (and neither will be the PP1/PP2).

There has to be a thread on "exclusivity", "specialness", "collectability" that you guys can discuss this stuff. This thread should be about track performance - "track times compared" (title).
Again, if you want to bring up the title of the thread, then stop talking about corvettes. This is quite obviously a mustang-camaro thread. I’m sure there’s a thread somewhere on corvette vs Ford GT, but this thread should be about the mustang and camaro

See how that works? Talking about a different car I saw exactly the same as talking about a different purpose for a car
 

Baron95

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Again, if you want to bring up the title of the thread, then stop talking about corvettes.
Fair enough - that one little comment about the ZR1 likely being faster than the Ford GT, really caused a giant detour.

However, in my defense, the Camaro and Corvette do share a lot of running gear, engineering, tuning, etc. When Chevy for instance launched the C7 Z06 we knew a year ahead of time what engine the ZL1 would have.

There is a very important point to this story. GM can pour a lot more money into the alpha platform, because it is shared with the Cadillac ATS, CTS, and they also can rely on Corvette running gear. Between the ATS-V, CTS-V, Camaro, Corvette GM can really invest in the platform.

It would be inconceivable that Ford, having only the Mustang as a front-engine rear wheel drive car platform, could invest anywhere near the same amount.

So yes, while this is about Corvette and Mustang, the R&D muscle behind the platforms is very much influenced by their corporate siblings and cousins.
 

jake_zx2

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Fair enough - that one little comment about the ZR1 likely being faster than the Ford GT, really caused a giant detour.

However, in my defense, the Camaro and Corvette do share a lot of running gear, engineering, tuning, etc. When Chevy for instance launched the C7 Z06 we knew a year ahead of time what engine the ZL1 would have.

There is a very important point to this story. GM can pour a lot more money into the alpha platform, because it is shared with the Cadillac ATS, CTS, and they also can rely on Corvette running gear. Between the ATS-V, CTS-V, Camaro, Corvette GM can really invest in the platform.

It would be inconceivable that Ford, having only the Mustang as a front-engine rear wheel drive car platform, could invest anywhere near the same amount.

So yes, while this is about Corvette and Mustang, the R&D muscle behind the platforms is very much influenced by their corporate siblings and cousins.
Yes, and that’s a great point, but I don’t think it’s all-telling. If that were really that much of an advantage, the camaro would severely outperform the mustang with the sameness equipment, but I’m sure we’d find that a PP1 vs SS compare woul come out with the 2 cars about even (that compare was done in 2016 when the 6g camaro first came out, and the cars were only separated by one point. However, the camaro excelled in track performance where the mustang excelled in street performance. I feel that the refresh would close the gap a bit more in both categories
 

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Baron95

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How can you be so highly qualified and NOT know that bias toward understeer is preferable in a performance car and that’s mid engined cars are prone to understeer?
I have no idea what you are talking about. But I can tell you that I'd not enjoy driving a car with a lot of understeer [corrected typo] in the Nring or any other track with fast turns that you do a ton of acceleration through. There is nothing I despise more than a car that forces you to back out of accelerating out of a turn because of lack of front end grip. I like to roll the gas to the point where the rear is threatening to move - that is nirvana.

On top of that the comments in the review were that the Ford GT had significant and annoying turbo lag. The second thing I despise the most - not being able to properly bring in the power. Randy said "I had to drive to the lag". How awful is that on a $450K car?

Lag and difficulty in modulating throttle combined with understeer. Not a combination to recommend. I think qualitatively the ZR1, with its very linear, no turbo lag, power delivery, great PTM modes to choose from, and no understeer will score higher than the Ford GT on driving feel/dynamics in any head to head.
 
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jake_zx2

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I have no idea what you are talking about. But I can tell you that I'd not enjoy driving a car with a lot of oversteer in the Nring or any other track with fast turns that you do a ton of acceleration through. There is nothing I despise more than a car that forces you to back out of accelerating out of a turn because of lack of front end grip. I like to roll the gas to the point where the rear is threatening to move - that is nirvana.
100% agree... I drove an R32 Skyline GTS-T with an RB26 on nurburgring, and that was absolutely awful, especially considering he has all season tires on it (He definitely wasn't a track guy at all).
On top of that the comments in the review were that the Ford GT had significant and annoying turbo lag. The second thing I despise the most - not being able to properly bring in the power. Randy said "I had to drive to the lag". How awful is that on a $450K car?
That's strange, I haven't seen that in ANY review of the car... I see a lot of comments that it has very linear power delivery due in part to the advanced anti-lag system on the car... I've been under the impression that it's power delivery is similar to that of a 488 GTB, but with more power down low
Lag and difficulty in modulating throttle combined with understeer. Not a combination to recommend. I think qualitatively the ZR1, with its very linear, no turbo lag, power delivery, great PTM modes to choose from, and no understeer will score higher than the Ford GT on driving feel/dynamics in any head to head.
Agreed, that's a dangerous combination. However, I feel the ZR1 will be prone to oversteer much like the Z06 is. Superchargers are great for power delivery, but AWFUL for heat (Which I feel, despite all the additional cooling, will still be a bit of a problem)
 

millhouse

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Affordable? Affordable to whom? How many people can afford a base model car that MSRPs at $80K?? For that matter how many people can afford a car that costs even half that? The GT350R MSRP was like $65K. How many people could even afford that? BTW, the GT350R is listed as a Supercar also. Were you aware of that? DO you agree with it? Just curious.
Apparently you don’t see what the rest of the country does. Just open your eyes and look around at everyone driving $70k+ SUVs and pickup trucks. A $79k corvette is absolutely obtainable by the middle class.

And hell no, the GT350R is absolutely NOT a supercar.

The Yukon Denali and Escalade are high end full size luxury 4WD SUVs with more options than most of us know exist. How is the price a comparison at all? And again, how many people can afford a Z06? Realistically. I'm not saying it is unobtainable. Obviously some people can afford it. But in all reality, if you financed it and put $15,000 on it you'd have a car payment of around $1100 a month. Again, how many people have enough money to afford it or justify it or could even get financing for it? And sure, a fully options GT convertible will be over $50K by a lot. How many people here can afford that? That is GT350 pricing and I didn't quite see lots of people buying them up.
Again, look around. Every other house in my subdivision sports a brand new loaded suburban, Denali, F150 etc….and I’m middle class all the way. You seem to be a bit ignorant on exactly how far people will go to buy something they want.

Again. I posted several links all from reliable sources saying that it was.
No, you posted business news and other misc articles that call a car whatever they feel like. What you (and they) are doing amounts to giving everyone a trophy for what they have not yet earned.

I'm not talking about internet opinion or what you call "affordability" or urban legend or folklore.
Except, that’s built in to the definition of a supercar. Most of the country hears the word supercar and thinks…Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti etc. Throwing the name “Corvette” into the mix insults every other supercar in existence.

It is listed as a Supercar by a variety of different sources each of whom are well established as reliable and trustworthy and each of whom can be considered officiates of this type of information. YOU don't want to acknowledge that. And this is going nowhere. So I will concede that you personally don't think it is nor do you want it to be. But it is defined as such.
And it’s also excluded from a variety of different sources and commonly shunned as being a supercar (for a reason).

http://www.complex.com/sports/2014/06/the-50-best-supercars-of-all-time/

http://www.craveonline.com/design/984739-top-30-best-supercars#/slide/1

https://www.globalcarsbrands.com/top-10-supercars/

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/88679/best-supercars

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2017/08/top-10-most-popular-supercar-brands-in-the-us.html

Noticeably missing from each one of these? Yep, the corvette.
 

jake_zx2

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Guys, let's get this back on topic... who gives a damn what one person calls it. This thread isn't even about Corvettes and GTs, its about Mustangs and Camaros. We don't want this thread getting shut down
 

jake_zx2

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Well, don't mean to derail this conversation again, but just read that the Ford GT just ACCIDENTALLY set a production car lap record at VIR, beating the Viper ACR by a whole 1.4 seconds... just something cool to mention!
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