2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

[jake_zx2]

Race? Who the heck is talking about racing? None of those cars we are discussing are legal to be road raced on any series (even amateur ones like NASA and SCCA).

We are talking about the ONLY place where you can legally enjoy the handling and performance of these cars "as sold" - on a track day. Not race. Not illegal street driving. But a safe organized track day.

And every year more and more people take their showroom stock cars to the track to have fun, learn, get faster.

The fact that you talk about "racing" means you have no idea what we are talking about here. Race cars are race cars - different topic, different planet. High performance cars suitable for driving on track is the topic.

A SS1LE, Corvette Grand Sport, Porsche Cayman or 911, BMW M2/M3/M4, etc can all be driven safely and enjoyably on track for season after season after season. Many people do that, and I instruct many of them. Some go on to acquire a race car or rent one, if they want to race.

The fact that there is no Mustang GT in existence or planned, with the proper cooling package to allow it to be driven on track without overheating is a shame. A real shame that Ford is choosing not to have a proper option.

I wrote so much, and you try to discredit me simply based on the semantics of ONE word? lmao wow, quit while you're ahead, bud. You're right, I have no idea what a track day is... you know, I just frequent Nurburgring because there's a bomb ass McDonald's up that way :headbonk:

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[millhouse]

I just gave you multiple sources, all different, all calling the ZR1 and/or Z06 a Supercar. What more do you want? All the conspiracy theories aside, the ZR1 and Z06 are indeed included in the classification of Supercar. Whether it gets noticed next to a Ferrari or Lambo or Aston Martin or not has no impact on the classification. And YOUR definition or the fact that you choose not to consider it a Supercar likewise has no impact on the classification. It IS a Supercar whether you like it or want to admit it or not.

It's funny, even corvette owners argue on this very subject. What you fail to realize is, in today’s terms, performance is not the only metric of a supercar. Does it fit the performance category? Sure. Does it fit the exotic category? Hell no it doesn’t, nor does it fit the “unobtainable for the blue collar worker” category. Hell, I could go down to my local chevy dealer and instantly get a Z06 if I wanted….and I (by the American standard) am by no means a rich man.

Here you go, just one of the few of many….many discussions on the corvette forum about it. Even they can’t agree that any corvette will truly be considered a “supercar”

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c8-general-discussion/3994433-a-supercar.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/3482461-c7-supercar.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/4077945-is-the-z06-a-legit-supercar-2.html

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-z06-discussion/2521376-zo6-supercar.html

You see, the problem with considering any corvette (that a middle class person can afford) is, it losses it’s wow factor. Supercars are supercars not just for their performance, but as something unobtainable to the masses.

Also consider, GM produced almost 10k corvettes in 2016. Ferrari doesn’t even make 10k total car across all of their models a year.

Honestly, calling the Z06 a supercar fits the Millennial bill of….everyone gets a trophy.

So go ahead, pull that Z06 up next to a school buss so all the kids and ooh and ahh over it. But when you bring it to cars and coffee, you better park it next to the rest of the camaros, corvettes and mustangs so people can get to what they really wanted...the real supercars in the main isles.

You're the type of person who talks a big game and makes bold claims and underestimates the competition just to be proven wrong and end up angrier or talking more trash. People like yourself end up losing races and eating crow or having their foot in their mouth because of their incessant trash talk. You do not have to like the ZR1. Nobody is telling you to. But you have to admit that it will be formidable and nothing to scoff at. It has 755 hp and will likely handle better than the Z06. And we have seen what GM has done with the SS 1LE, ZL1, ZL1 1LE, and Z06. This car will have more power and torque than all of them and handle better. While I think the Ford GT has the advantage, I would not underestimate the ZR1 at all. That would be very foolish. Because if it does beat the Ford GT, you'll be crapping for hours after eating all the words you're shouting out.

The corvette is and always will be known a midlife crises car….or a poor mans Porsche. In the end, GM will eventually make something that beats a Ford GT…but it will still be considered inferior and (unlike the GT) will depreciate until Billy Bob that works down at the Wallmarts can afford it. I’m sorry if this upsets you, but the Z06 will never be as desirable. It’s not even as desirable as a GT350R.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

So go ahead, pull that Z06 up next to a school buss so all the kids and ooh and ahh over it. But when you bring it to cars and coffee, you better park it next to the rest of the camaros, corvettes and mustangs so people can get to what they really wanted...the real supercars in the main isles.

This thread has gone full retard.

The kids on my street all think my brothers Z06 with Z07 is a Ferrari. They get excited about it and that is much more fulfilling and fun than the old douche bags at cars and coffee standing next to their cars that they rarely drive, let alone track. Give me a break.

 

[Baron95]

There is no accepted definition of Supercar, Supermodel, Superstar. Arguing about it is pointless, since there is no accepted definition to score.

The one thing that we can discuss is the relative track performance of various cars, when they are run by a consistent driver (e.g. Randy Pobst), with a consistent methodology (e.g. MT's track tests), on a track at similar conditions. Another example are manufacturer test drivers (not hero pro racers) setting Nurburgring lap times.

Porsche and GM consistently send all their performance cars to the Nurburgring and publish video and lap times, in a production, non-caged car, with a factory test driver at the wheel. That shows confidence and transparency. Ford, incidentally, hide's from the N'ring as much as it can.

So while its pointless to argue if the ZR1 is a supercar or not, I think the data on the Grand Sport and Z06 lap times from MT and others seem to indicate that the ZR1 will most likely be faster on track than the Ford GT.

Supercar? Don't know, don't care.

Amazing performance? Sure.

Faster than most European $300K+ cars? Sure.

Faster than Ford's $450K GT? Very likely.

More likely to be tracked and enjoyed than the polish and collect Ford GT? Absolutely.

 

[millhouse]

This thread has gone full retard.

The kids on my street all think my brothers Z06 with Z07 is a Ferrari. They get excited about it and that is much more fulfilling and fun than the old douche bags at cars and coffee standing next to their cars that they rarely drive, let alone track. Give me a break.

The truth hurts. No one wants to see a zo6 at a car show. People show up to see rare and odd vehicles as well as supercars.

 

[jake_zx2]

There is no accepted definition of Supercar, Supermodel, Superstar. Arguing about it is pointless, since there is no accepted definition to score.
Agreed, I could care less about what the car is called. Ultimately, they're all sports cars
The one thing that we can discuss is the relative track performance of various cars, when they are run by a consistent driver (e.g. Randy Pobst), with a consistent methodology (e.g. MT's track tests), on a track at similar conditions. Another example are manufacturer test drivers (not hero pro racers) setting Nurburgring lap times.
Funny how you like to cherrypick one specific scenario in which the corvette is anywhere near (1.4 seconds on a small track consisting of mostly straights and not many tight turns) the GT, even though its not only a different day, but a different time of year. Bottom line is that same driver, same day, the GT is plenty faster than the Z06, and the ZR1, while it may come closer, is still unlikely to beat it.
Porsche and GM consistently send all their performance cars to the Nurburgring and publish video and lap times, in a production, non-caged car, with a factory test driver at the wheel. That shows confidence and transparency. Ford, incidentally, hide's from the N'ring as much as it can.
Take it from someone who frequents Nurburgring, those times really don't mean much. That track is so full of high speed turns that it's unrelatable to almost ANY other track in the world. Ford doesn't go there because times there don't mean anything, its just a bragging point for uneducated bench racers
So while its pointless to argue if the ZR1 is a supercar or not, I think the data on the Grand Sport and Z06 lap times from MT and others seem to indicate that the ZR1 will most likely be faster on track than the Ford GT.
Very unlikely
Supercar? Don't know, don't care.

Amazing performance? Sure.

Faster than most European $300K+ cars? Sure.

Faster than Ford's $450K GT? Very likely.
Very unlikely
More likely to be tracked and enjoyed than the polish and collect Ford GT? Absolutely.

honestly, the only reason it would be is because it'll be produced in larger numbers. Chevy has already said they're building this more for the country club cruiser than they are the track addict

 

[1320']

At my local shows all the Corvette butt buddies demand their own special place so they can all sit together in one group.

At a memorial car show, dedicated to a local kid that was killed in a racing accident (on track, he was working on getting his licensing passes done) the Rogue Valley Corvette Club didn't manage to get the best spot in the show area (IE front and center when you first walked in) and threw the biggest goddamned hissy fit meltdown and threatened to not only not go to that show, but to block ALL future shows at that location if they didn't get their way.

They did, sadly, get their way. The moral of the story is the only people impressed with Corvettes are usually Corvette owners.

 

[nastang87xx]

Isn’t any 200 mph and plus stock factory car considered a supercar? Does it also have to pull minimum 1g in the corners with factory rubber and stop from 60 mph in less than 100 ft at ambient dry conditions like 70 deg F?

No. A Ferrari F430 can't even do all of this and yet it's considered a supercar.

This thread needs to just stop now. The amount of split hairs and also the obscene comparisons of tomato and tomahto are just so out of hand, you can't even grip it anymore.

Back on topic'ish, since the thread was about the Camaro vs Mustang but is now a semantics war. Supercars are a TRICKLE DOWN trigger of exclusivity, ideology, design, technology, performance, aesthetic, and tier level. All of these attributes need to contribute to lesser cars saying "oh! we need that in 5 - 10 years!" And here's the problem with supercars. Modern every day sports cars ("every day", if you will) have started to see a lot of supercar tech and design but the supercar needle hasn't moved much. Carbon ceramic brakes in $75K Camaros, 200 MPH in shit box plastic interior S197 Shelby GT500's, 48205 way traction control systems in $65K Corvettes, 1.00+ skidpad numbers on ragamuffin Mustangs...

But now sports cars of certain lineages like Corvettes are starting to dip into supercar range of price and performance...or are they? Is the idea of the supercar obsolete? Maybe it is. A Huracan costs $250K. A 488 GTB costs $300K. Absolutely supercars or at least most would think. Then there's a $140K ZR1 or a $150K Nissan GTR Nismo that absolutely is in the same performance conversation. They all use exotic materials. Both are the top tiers of their respective manufacturers. Both are mind numbing capable on track and the streets. But why isn't a GTR Nismo or a ZR1 considered a supercar? Frankly I don't know. I don't consider them supercars either. But if one were to ask me, I'd have a hard time conveying my thought to you, although I that thought is very much there. It's just very hard to explain.

Supercars of what we consider supercars really aren't moving the bar with as big of margins as they used to. You couldn't have the same conversation with a C5 Z06 with a 360 Modena as we do with a present day Z06 and a 488 GTB. Are there quality and tolerance differences between the two? Oh yeah. But is that how we measure supercars now? How tight the body panels are to each other? Because the performance line and even the exclusivity line has certainly been blurred.

Lamborghini sold as many Huracans as Ford sold GT350R's. That bursts the exclusivity bubble.

A USED 2013 GT500 will damn near match a current day R8 V10 on top speed. Forget the 200 MPH club to identify a supercar.

A GTR Nismo crosses streams with the NSX's price point.

The Viper ACR stops harder than just about anything on 4 wheels short of driving off a cliff.

It goes on and on and on...

If we were to identify supercars as they were defined 25 years ago, then the only REAL true supercars of today are the 918, the Ferrari TheFerrari, the P1, The 911 GT2 RS, Koenigsegg anything, the Aventador LP-750 SV, Bugatti anything, and maybe a few others.




/end thread

 

[Baron95]

[MENTION=24829]jake_zx2[/MENTION]

We don't have perfect data - same day, same driver, same track, same methodology between the Ford GT and Z06, or between the SS1LE and the (non R) GT350, etc.

So the discussion is around getting some data points, that are indicative of relative performance.

And the datapoints are that both the base GT350 and Ford GT underwhelm in the track performance department.

The Ford GT specifically is only 200 lbs lighter than the Z06/ZR1, understeers at the limit (which is astounding for a mid-rear engined car), has brakes that didn't inspire confidence (all Randy's words), middling skid pad and figure 8 numbers, etc.

It is not a word class performance for a $450K purpose built sports car. It simply isn't. Maybe partly because Ford didn't challenge itself to put it on the Nring to benchmark against their peers.

Whatever you say about the Nring, the value in it is that a car needs to maintain track pace for 7+min, without overheating brakes, transmission, tires, engine, diff, etc. That is the value.

For example, a PP2 (no coolers) may very well do a decent lap time at Lime Rock Park (cold and short), but fail miserably at the Nring once it gets to the 5 min mark and everything starts to overheat. It is a valuable test, that shows "this car can keep it up for 7 or 8 min".

 

[millhouse]

And the datapoints are that both the base GT350 and Ford GT underwhelm in the track performance department.

I'm curious about these datapoints. C&D destroyed the lap time record in the GT at VIR.

The Ford GT specifically is only 200 lbs lighter than the Z06/ZR1, understeers at the limit (which is astounding for a mid-rear engined car), has brakes that didn't inspire confidence (all Randy's words), middling skid pad and figure 8 numbers, etc.

And yet, by all accounts the GT is an amazing car to drive. The Z06 on the other hand can be flat out dangerous to drive at the limits.

And for the record, Rand prefers a car with a slight amount of understeer...his words not mine.

And again, it's astounding people keep on laying claim to skid pad and figure 8 titles. The last time I checked, you don't get a trophy for either of those.

It is not a word class performance for a $450K purpose built sports car. It simply isn't. Maybe partly because Ford didn't challenge itself to put it on the Nring to benchmark against their peers.

Ford (along with many other manufacturers) knows the ring is a bullshit track. There is nothing to prove on it.

As for being a world class performance car....most publications (and owners) would disagree. 7000 people lined up for the first 250 car allotment.

Whatever you say about the Nring, the value in it is that a car needs to maintain track pace for 7+min, without overheating brakes, transmission, tires, engine, diff, etc. That is the value.

Funny, the Z06 completed the ring in record time yet overheats in as many as 1 lap at tracks here in the US.

As stated by others, the ring is a glory track and often comes down to what driver has the biggest balls. It is irrelevant when comparing to normal tracks across the world. Hell, even folks at motortrend have made comments on on such.

For example, a PP2 (no coolers) may very well do a decent lap time at Lime Rock Park (cold and short), but fail miserably at the Nring once it gets to the 5 min mark and everything starts to overheat. It is a valuable test, that shows "this car can keep it up for 7 or 8 min".

And conversely...again, the Z06 can do great at the ring and overheat at Laguna Seca. There goes that theory. :headbonk:

 

[1320']

[MENTION=24829]jake_zx2[/MENTION]

We don't have perfect data - same day, same driver, same track, same methodology between the Ford GT and Z06, or between the SS1LE and the (non R) GT350, etc.

So the discussion is around getting some data points, that are indicative of relative performance.

And the datapoints are that both the base GT350 and Ford GT underwhelm in the track performance department.

The Ford GT specifically is only 200 lbs lighter than the Z06/ZR1, understeers at the limit (which is astounding for a mid-rear engined car), has brakes that didn't inspire confidence (all Randy's words), middling skid pad and figure 8 numbers, etc.

It is not a word class performance for a $450K purpose built sports car. It simply isn't. Maybe partly because Ford didn't challenge itself to put it on the Nring to benchmark against their peers.

Whatever you say about the Nring, the value in it is that a car needs to maintain track pace for 7+min, without overheating brakes, transmission, tires, engine, diff, etc. That is the value.

For example, a PP2 (no coolers) may very well do a decent lap time at Lime Rock Park (cold and short), but fail miserably at the Nring once it gets to the 5 min mark and everything starts to overheat. It is a valuable test, that shows "this car can keep it up for 7 or 8 min".

So what is your purpose on this forum?

It's obviously not to buy or enjoy talking about the 2015+ Mustang, and you're not entertaining the idea of owning one..

So what's the story?

 

[Hack]

If we were to identify supercars as they were defined 25 years ago, then the only REAL true supercars of today are the 918, the Ferrari TheFerrari, the P1, The 911 GT2 RS, Koenigsegg anything, the Aventador LP-750 SV, Bugatti anything, and maybe a few others.

I agree with this. A super car isn't something that most people can purchase, and it isn't going to be found sitting at your local Chevy or Ford dealership.

I think the Ford GT fits into the super car realm, but just barely. But you won't see one of those available for purchase at the local dealership. I would put the Pantera as a past Lincoln Mercury product as being arguably near, but not quite super car status. If someone argued with me enough it wouldn't be hard to get me to buy into the Pantera being in that exclusive club.

The Corvette is a fast sports car though. It's cool and all. But it's too common and not exclusive enough to fit into super car status in my opinion.

 

[Baron95]

So what is your purpose on this forum?

1 - Have fun, take short breaks from boring work.

2 - Discuss things I love - affordable performance cars that do great on track days.

3 - Try to gain insight to the question of "how is the PP2 likely to perform vs the SS1LE" as I "need" to buy a new track car by early April.

4 - Try to shame Ford into joining more fully the glorious quest (started by GM) of giving consumers like me "ready to track" affordable cars.

5 - Apparently annoy people (like you ?) who are so defensive about Ford's shortcomings that they need to constantly question the motives of those who bring data to the discussion.

 

[nastang87xx]

I think the Ford GT fits into the super car realm, but just barely.

And it seems like the McLaren 720S has already cornholed the Ford GT in most performance categories. The driving experience? Well I'm not rich enough for either of the two so...

 

[JohnnyUtah]

The truth hurts. No one wants to see a zo6 at a car show. People show up to see rare and odd vehicles as well as supercars.

Who cares? Is that why you buy a car? To make sure everyone around you has a hard on for it?

Guess what? Most guys I know that actually track cars don't even go to cars and coffee. The real show is at the track.

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