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Stock GT Mani vs F150 Mani Dyno

strengthrehab

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This will be killer on the road course.
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markmurfie

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Interesting to see the dyno results backed up what I saw in the logs from the other thread.
 

TooSoonJunior

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Those graphs are a mess. Definitely all kinds of cam timing issues going on there. If I look at the big swings in the VCT sections of the stock tune, there is a big change right after 4,000rpms (-20 intake down to 0 by 5k) and another HUGE swing from 5,000 to 5,500 (0 to +10). Looks like the PP2 on the GT manifold shows these same dips and swings but just less dramatic.

If you look at my overlay moving from left to right, the first torque dip happens right around 4,000 rpms and starts to recover once the intake cam is moved from 20* retard towards only 15* retard by 4250. At 4750rpms, the torque has fully recovered with 5* of retard. This tells me the intake cam needed to be advanced a little bit sooner towards 5* of retard to avoid the dip.

At the end of the curve, it is very clear the blue PP2 horsepower had a strange event between 5250 and 6250 rpms, maybe some knock? But it quickly recovers at 6250. I would bet whatever that dip was in power is not something to do with the GT manifold or VCT timing, as the VCT timing is very smooth in this area without any real dips or increases. Had that dip not happened the horsepower would have been even more obviously higher than the F150.

The GT vs F150 compare is eerily similar to the GT350 vs GT comparison ON THE TOP END (please don't troll me with the down low torque loss). And trust me, that last 750-1,000rpm of carrying out the horsepower made the car A LOT faster. I would guess the GT manifold would have a comparably FASTER ET at the track over the F150 with the extra 750-100 rpms of usable power.
VCT vs F150.JPG
 

Eritas

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Settle i was giving you hell but S65s dont make crap for torque unless you rev them like a voodoo.
Hence my point about a flat torque curve and high RPM....:doh:

Don't you mean a Voodoo revs like my (old/sold) S65? :headbang:

Maybe it was my import background liking low displacement/high revving engines over old-school pushrod American V8 lumps that can't rev, but I would prefer a Voodoo or a 8K-RPM capable Coyote (with a 350 manifold) over a similar power/torque F150 manifold Coyote (or might as well buy a Camaro).

F150 Manifold owners secretly dream of having this (2016 Camaro SS):

2016-camaro-ss-dyno-numbers-power-torque-screen.jpg


=Flatter torque curve, similar peak torque and power, smoother powerband. Yet it can't do crap above 6,000RPM (like an F150 coyote).

The Coyote is a higher revving, more sophisticated engine. It makes no sense to try to turn it into a (not as good) LT1 rather than a (BETTER) 5.0L V8. :frusty:

vs OP's graph:

 

ahl395

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Maybe on the track the F150 manifold isn't ideal, but for the street it looks like the F150 manifold easily wins.

Not sure why all the hate for this mod, 12hp? I doubt anyone can even feel 12hp.

For those interested, I'm (eventually) going to be doing a F150 manifold with my P1X. Hoping the P1X will cancel out the small power loss up top from this manifold. I'll be posting the results whenever I finally do it.
 
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Maybe on the track the F150 manifold isn't ideal, but for the street it looks like the F150 manifold easily wins.

Not sure why all the hate for this mod, 12hp? I doubt anyone can even feel 12hp.

For those interested, I'm (eventually) going to be doing a F150 manifold with my P1X. Hoping the P1X will cancel out the small power loss up top from this manifold. I'll be posting the results whenever I finally do it.
I'm still not following why you'd put a truck manifold on a boosted car but OK.
 

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ahl395

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I'm still not following why you'd put a truck manifold on a boosted car but OK.
I'm wastegated and see max boost by about 7k, so I dont rev past that.

Its my part-daily and with how much power it has on the street, I rarely even get close to 7k.

For the street im looking for more mid power, hence the wastegate. If this will give me more power thats usable to me, it accomplishes the same goal as the wastegate did.

:shrug: And for the $63 it costed me, why not try something different? I'm dyno'ing before and after so I may stand corrected and switch back to the stock manifold. Worth a shot though.
 

Eritas

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Maybe on the track the F150 manifold isn't ideal, but for the street it looks like the F150 manifold easily wins.

Not sure why all the hate for this mod, 12hp? I doubt anyone can even feel 12hp.

For those interested, I'm (eventually) going to be doing a F150 manifold with my P1X. Hoping the P1X will cancel out the small power loss up top from this manifold. I'll be posting the results whenever I finally do it.
You can't feel the car run out of breath at 6,500RPM?

I'm wastegated and see max boost by about 7k, so I dont rev past that.

Its my part-daily and with how much power it has on the street, I rarely even get close to 7k.

For the street im looking for more mid power, hence the wastegate. If this will give me more power thats usable to me, it accomplishes the same goal as the wastegate did.

:shrug: And for the $63 it costed me, why not try something different? I'm dyno'ing before and after so I may stand corrected and switch back to the stock manifold. Worth a shot though.
How do you have a wastegate on a supercharger? Seems like a positive displacement/roots/twin screw would be more up your low RPM torque alley than a centrifugal SC.

Please start your Dyno pull at 1-2K RPM.
 

ahl395

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You can't feel the car run out of breath at 6,500RPM?


How do you have a wastegate on a supercharger? Seems like a positive displacement/roots/twin screw would be more up your low RPM torque alley than a centrifugal SC.

Please start your Dyno pull at 1-2K RPM.
My wastegate opens at probably 6k (rough guess). After that it keeps pulling but you can feel less "pull". Doesn't bother me for the huge midrange gain that I get from it.

A centrifugal wastegate setup uses a smaller pulley on the supercharger (pullied for ~20psi), and then a wastegate to bleed off all the boost over your chosen amount (~12psi for me). But because of the smaller pulley boost builds incredibly faster. I didn't dyno before/after but the increase in midrange power was huge in street driving.

A wastegated centri delivers power similarly to a PD blower but still has the low IAT benefits of a centri.
 
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jcart953

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You misunderstood what I was saying. PP2 tune is designed for the GT manifold and is making more power than a tune designed for the specifically for that car. Something isn't right.
Herin lies the problem. I don't think my tuner knew what he was doing. His belief was that there was no difference in the stock vs F150 manifold. As such I think he tuned the manifold as if it was a stock one causing the big issue.

6,750? It clearly shows 7,000RPM redline on the graph, and IIRC, the PP2 raises the rev limit beyond 7K.

There's some pretty significant and not-normal dips in the PP2 with the GT manifold. This leads me to believe something may be wrong with the tune or his car. I doubt Ford would make such a poor tune.

Agreed, but "low"? I'd just say the F150 makes more mid-range since they look damn near equal below 3,500RPM.


Agreed. Neither is PP2 having such a poor looking curve that jumps up and down like it is. So either something is wrong with the car, the tune isn't Ford's, or Ford is incompetent.
Might have to double check but I don't believe the PP2 raises past 7K rpm unless my eyes are deceiving me. There is also no indication there is anything wrong with my car as there are no cells and the logs don't show anything significant. As far as the dips I although its a OEM tune it does not negate its a canned, conservative tune that's not really made for this manifold.

As far as the tune not being "Ford" that is just rubbish not even sure how that is a conclusion.


Fair enough on the tune not being optimized for the F150, but you see the TQ dropping very quickly at 6,500RPM, I don't think a tune is going to fix that choked off manifold.
I agree that a tune may not may not improve beyond 6500 as the that's not where the truck manifold shines obviously. However a proper LUND or AED tune might remedy those dips and improve that curve.



I'd love to see results of a thorough dyno tune, including VCT.....
The sad part is this was supposed to have VCT tuning. I asked the tuner on multiple occasions to check the tune and he kept saying it was perfect etc. I even messaged after the dyno and have not heard back . Truly sad as their website states they keep working on tune revsions to get it perfect. Yet that never occurred.:paddle: . Total waste of money lol.
Interesting to see the dyno results backed up what I saw in the logs from the other thread.
True indeed as I haven't used his tune since.
F150 Manifold owners secretly dream of having this (2016 Camaro SS):
Disagree. Nothing wrong about modding YOUR mustang how you want but to make such a blanket statement is just ridiculous. The point of a mustang imo is to mod and come up with new ideas to share with the community. If no one ever tried to come up with anything new then it would just be boring. If you don't like it fine. Keep your childish insults to yourself;)
 
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jcart953

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Those graphs are a mess. Definitely all kinds of cam timing issues going on there. If I look at the big swings in the VCT sections of the stock tune, there is a big change right after 4,000rpms (-20 intake down to 0 by 5k) and another HUGE swing from 5,000 to 5,500 (0 to +10). Looks like the PP2 on the GT manifold shows these same dips and swings but just less dramatic.

If you look at my overlay moving from left to right, the first torque dip happens right around 4,000 rpms and starts to recover once the intake cam is moved from 20* retard towards only 15* retard by 4250. At 4750rpms, the torque has fully recovered with 5* of retard. This tells me the intake cam needed to be advanced a little bit sooner towards 5* of retard to avoid the dip.

At the end of the curve, it is very clear the blue PP2 horsepower had a strange event between 5250 and 6250 rpms, maybe some knock? But it quickly recovers at 6250. I would bet whatever that dip was in power is not something to do with the GT manifold or VCT timing, as the VCT timing is very smooth in this area without any real dips or increases. Had that dip not happened the horsepower would have been even more obviously higher than the F150.

The GT vs F150 compare is eerily similar to the GT350 vs GT comparison ON THE TOP END (please don't troll me with the down low torque loss). And trust me, that last 750-1,000rpm of carrying out the horsepower made the car A LOT faster. I would guess the GT manifold would have a comparably FASTER ET at the track over the F150 with the extra 750-100 rpms of usable power.
Curious where are you getting those numbers from?
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