CG Lock or 4 Point Harness

rcb020 · Sep 7, 2015

I'm looking to keep myself in my seat during HPDE. I plan to do about 10 weekends a year, car is a daily driver. I had to brace myself a lot on my last track day with my knees, against the door and center console so much they were pretty sore after.

Cheapest solution is the CG Lock, which most people seem to like other than some reviews that it can break easily or loosen after a few laps.
http://www.cg-lock.com/track.html

Other solution for OEM Recaros is a 4 point harness. Only one I am considering is the Schroth Quick Fit which is designed to work with the Mustang's airbag deployment and most importantly features "anti-submarining" technology.
http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/quick-fit/mustang-quick-fit

What do you guys think, anybody use either of these before? I know people don't recommend harnesses without roll protection, not sure if the Schroth 4 point I linked falls in the same category. Also, I have checked with the group I go with and the Schroth 4 point with "ASM" is allowed.

Trackaholic · Sep 8, 2015

I have a CG Lock and like it very much. However it really works best for fore/aft motion. If you are moving side-to-side, I'm not sure it provides much help (of course it depends how much you can cinch down on the belt).

I also bought some pads that some guy was selling at a track day, and coupled with the CG Lock they help stop the side-to-side motion.

The pads were from these guys:
http://angelwingstech.com/

I see they are ~$190 on their website. I don't think they were that much when I bought them, but I no longer remember what I paid. Seems a bit expensive for what they are, but they work well in my Z, are simple to use, and I just leave them in the garage when street driving. They also seem to be of high quality.

I do usually about four track days per year, so going with a harness bar was a bit more involved than I was willing to do. I will definitely be using the CG Lock on my GT350 when it arrives, but maybe the pads won't be necessary due to the bolsters on the Recaro seats.

-T

DRKHR5 · Oct 16, 2015

might as well post this in all relevant threads.

Found this today. Relatively basic in design and not too expensive. Maybe an option.

http://shop.watsonracing.com/2015-S550-Mustang-6-Point-Roll-Bar-p/wr-15-boltincage6pt.htm

I don't however know how belts then mount to the bar? versus bolt holes

Gomer · May 30, 2017

DRKHR5 said:
might as well post this in all relevant threads.

Found this today. Relatively basic in design and not too expensive. Maybe an option.

http://shop.watsonracing.com/2015-S550-Mustang-6-Point-Roll-Bar-p/wr-15-boltincage6pt.htm

I don't however know how belts then mount to the bar? versus bolt holes

There are hoops on the roll cage for shoulder belts and you use seat bolts for lap belts.

Grintch · Jun 1, 2017

rcb020 said:
I'm looking to keep myself in my seat during HPDE. I plan to do about 10 weekends a year, car is a daily driver. I had to brace myself a lot on my last track day with my knees, against the door and center console so much they were pretty sore after.

Cheapest solution is the CG Lock, which most people seem to like other than some reviews that it can break easily or loosen after a few laps.
http://www.cg-lock.com/track.html

Other solution for OEM Recaros is a 4 point harness. Only one I am considering is the Schroth Quick Fit which is designed to work with the Mustang's airbag deployment and most importantly features "anti-submarining" technology.
http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/quick-fit/mustang-quick-fit

What do you guys think, anybody use either of these before? I know people don't recommend harnesses without roll protection, not sure if the Schroth 4 point I linked falls in the same category. Also, I have checked with the group I go with and the Schroth 4 point with "ASM" is allowed.

I have the Schroth's and I have used Corbeu 4 point "tuner belts" in my prior car.

The Schroth's are better but I am not sure they are 2x better (which is the price difference). Plus they are not officially blessed for use in the S550, only the S197, which may matter depending on your track day organization (not NASA legal for a S550).

F0J · Jun 1, 2017

Keep in mind that those harnesses aren't "safer". They will keep you tight in the seat but in the event of a collision or rollover, you'll probably worse off as the car's system need to work in concert.

After just a couple laps on RE-71Rs, I realized that keeping myself in the seat would be pretty important. I'll be dropping 'er off at Watson for airbag deletes, cage and 5 point harness sometime before next season.

Grintch · Jun 1, 2017

F0J said:
Keep in mind that those harnesses aren't "safer". They will keep you tight in the seat but in the event of a collision or rollover, you'll probably worse off as the car's system need to work in concert.

After just a couple laps on RE-71Rs, I realized that keeping myself in the seat would be pretty important. I'll be dropping 'er off at Watson for airbag deletes, cage and 5 point harness sometime before next season.

That's a whole other discussion.

Has Watson crash tested it's roll cage? With your particular seat & harness? No, so you are violating the "works in concert" in your plan as well.

Schroth claims to test it's quick fit hardware in stock vehicles. Or we can all sit on the couch because we don't have a 27 point FIA legal roll cage, which some people will tell you is unsafe for street use.

BmacIL · Jun 1, 2017

Well, related: I got a pair of those seat belt adjustment locks and tried it out on the street yesterday. MUCH better. Still not a harness, as it only locks your lap down, but way better than how the 3-point belt normally works.

Competition Orange · Jun 1, 2017

BmacIL said:
Well, related: I got a pair of those seat belt adjustment locks and tried it out on the street yesterday. MUCH better. Still not a harness, as it only locks your lap down, but way better than how the 3-point belt normally works.

Which one did you get?

F0J · Jun 1, 2017

Grintch said:
That's a whole other discussion.

Has Watson crash tested it's roll cage? With your particular seat & harness? No, so you are violating the "works in concert" in your plan as well.

Schroth claims to test it's quick fit hardware in stock vehicles. Or we can all sit on the couch because we don't have a 27 point FIA legal roll cage, which some people will tell you is unsafe for street use.

I intentionally didn't say that my plan is "better". I also defer to Watson to make most of those choices for me since they are the ones building race cars. I live in Winnipeg - the drive out there for their expertise is *much* more expensive than ordering a prefab and installing it myself.

The *only* mods I've done are wheels, tires and data acq. After barely pushing the car 20 laps it was obvious to me that I should make the car "safer" as opposed to investing in chassis or power.

The sentiment that you can just throw in a Schroth and receive a net improvement is not true (as per the Internet) <- my point.

BmacIL · Jun 1, 2017

Competition Orange said:
Which one did you get?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XJ0EF0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's nice that you can keep your grip on the wheel light because you're not trying to hold on (nearly as much).

Grintch · Jun 1, 2017

F0J said:
I intentionally didn't say that my plan is "better". I also defer to Watson to make most of those choices for me since they are the ones building race cars. I live in Winnipeg - the drive out there for their expertise is *much* more expensive than ordering a prefab and installing it myself.

The *only* mods I've done are wheels, tires and data acq. After barely pushing the car 20 laps it was obvious to me that I should make the car "safer" as opposed to investing in chassis or power.

The sentiment that you can just throw in a Schroth and receive a net improvement is not true (as per the Internet) <- my point.

According to different people on the internet it's safer. Let's see: Doesn't disable any stock safety equipment, provides more surface area to restrain you in a heavy crash, and keeps you in place better so you can control the car and not crash. So how is it worse?

I have done it all wrong on mine car, aftermarket no airbag seat & custom seat mount (so I can actually fit with a helmet on), and the Schroth harness. And I feel more safe in the Mustang than I do in my racecar that has a full cage, arm restraints, and a H&NR.

My issue is that stock cars have one method of crash safety (airbags & crush zones), and race cars have a different method (cages & aggressive restraint). Unless you test them for the same events/crashes you can't say which is safer (the OEMS definitely do more crash testing than any race shop/supplier). Remember the race rules are essentially based on 1970 & 80's technology. It is probably less safe somewhere between the two on a given car because the approaches somewhat conflict. But I wouldn't put that point at adding a Schroth 4 point harness or a GC lock. It's probably where you are taking out airbags, yet don't have full race spec safety (like I have somewhat done). Or when you drive your caged car on the street with no helmet and only a 3 point belt.

Don't crash, and everything will be fine. Or spend $20,000 on a top flight cage, helmet, harness, racing suit, fuel cell, etc. and wear them 24 hours a day.

I often feel less safe on the street at 60 mph than at the track at 120 mph. I have yet to see someone on the track talking or texting on their cell phone and not paying attention to their driving.

JohnD · Jun 1, 2017

Recaros, or any good racing seat, make a hell of a big difference in sideways load situations.

saf1 · Jun 1, 2017

Grintch said:
I often feel less safe on the street at 60 mph than at the track at 120 mph. I have yet to see someone on the track talking or texting on their cell phone and not paying attention to their driving.

That is how I almost got plowed into by a heavy duty full size Dodge ram who was not paying attention to the road in front of him. Was also towing a multi ramp car trailer. Luckily no car was at the light to my left and he swerved around at the last minute almost taking out a car turning left :( Sadly he looked back at me and again when I passed him like I did something wrong while stopped at a light yet he almost hit two cars. Goof ball.

Anyway your comment is very true. People on the track are focused on the track and road, not the music, station, or phone.

F0J · Jun 2, 2017

Grintch said:
According to different people on the internet it's safer. Let's see: Doesn't disable any stock safety equipment, provides more surface area to restrain you in a heavy crash, and keeps you in place better so you can control the car and not crash. So how is it worse?

I have done it all wrong on mine car, aftermarket no airbag seat & custom seat mount (so I can actually fit with a helmet on), and the Schroth harness. And I feel more safe in the Mustang than I do in my racecar that has a full cage, arm restraints, and a H&NR.

My issue is that stock cars have one method of crash safety (airbags & crush zones), and race cars have a different method (cages & aggressive restraint). Unless you test them for the same events/crashes you can't say which is safer (the OEMS definitely do more crash testing than any race shop/supplier). Remember the race rules are essentially based on 1970 & 80's technology. It is probably less safe somewhere between the two on a given car because the approaches somewhat conflict. But I wouldn't put that point at adding a Schroth 4 point harness or a GC lock. It's probably where you are taking out airbags, yet don't have full race spec safety (like I have somewhat done). Or when you drive your caged car on the street with no helmet and only a 3 point belt.

Don't crash, and everything will be fine. Or spend $20,000 on a top flight cage, helmet, harness, racing suit, fuel cell, etc. and wear them 24 hours a day.

I often feel less safe on the street at 60 mph than at the track at 120 mph. I have yet to see someone on the track talking or texting on their cell phone and not paying attention to their driving.

If all a person does is add *just* a Schroth, from what I've read and in a really hand wavey kinda way (I am in no way supporting these facts or saying I'm an expert):

OEM works a little like this: In a collision, the top belt will remain loose until a pre-calculated point. That point is the ideal point to suddenly increase tension in the belt to absorb momentum and let your head crash in the multitple air bags. That momentum moving forward is important as, in conjunction with the tight bottom belt, is a very good way to prevent submarining.

In a rollover, that lack of top tension also allows you to bend in the car to mitigate getting squished.

So the Schroth would:

* Change the tension point that the airbags depend on
* Increase the amount of stress on the neck
* Keep the body upright in the event of a rollover
* Increase the chance of submarining

But it does 100% keep the driver in a position to prevent an accident and I 100% agree. There's not much saving you hitting a wall head on at 150mph.

Heck, airbags alone can mess you up pretty good if you wear a full face helmet.

The car is already relatively fire safe from what I understand. So:

Airbag deletes
5 point harness (the 5th is important for submarining)
HANS + Helmet
"Basic" Cage (specifically to address the roll-over issue)

Isn't 20k. But it's a heckuva lot more than just setting up the Schroth.

CG Lock or 4 Point Harness

rcb020

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Trackaholic

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DRKHR5

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Gomer

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Grintch

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F0J

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Grintch

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BmacIL

Enginerd

Competition Orange

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F0J

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BmacIL

Enginerd

Grintch

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JohnD

Legend in his own mind

saf1

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F0J

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