Ford Racing ProCal Tune

TheLion · Aug 8, 2016

I listed LMS as an alternative due to the nature of Livernois and the exceptional quality and depth of understanding in their work. They are an OE partner with Ford Motor Co. and Ford Racing. They are the only one which can claim collaborative R&D as well. That does not come easy.

Legally none of these tunes void the warranty unless they actually did case the failures (which I've seen quite a few Cobb Stage 3 failures in the Focus St with cracked heads, burst rings etc. which are tell tale signs of knock induced failure, this is only an example to illustrate my point using real occurrences), burden of proof lies on the manufacturer. Practically Ford has deeper pockets than you do, but then again, I have not seen any instances where denied warranty claim was ever actually taken to court either...so what's the reality of the situation? People are told no, argue a bit over it and then eat the loss.

Another reason I listed them is their track record. To date, 100% success rate with the EB engines, I believe that is the case with all of their lines. There is not an aftermarket PCM software or shop tune which can claim 100% that I'm aware of. Perhaps given a long enough time span that might change, but at the moment it's impeccable.

Further more, warranties only matter if you need them. The only real risk by using LMS is if you have an infant mortality issue. Aka a defect that would cause catastrophic failure even with the factory PCM software, which is extremely rare even in 2015's, it's non-existent in 2016's. I was a stickler for "warranty safe modifications" as many of the modifications out there pose some risk, but with a 100% success rate it's irrelevant.

I really dug into this one as I was very skeptical about their claim and wanted to have the highest level of confidence, but I have not been able to find any hard evidence after hours and hours of digging through obscure threads...I looked for Focus ST, F-150's (several blown engines related to the hydro lock from high levels of condensate), Focus ST's, Fiesta ST's and SHO's (oldest platform to have the EB engine, running 7 years now since 2009) related to LMS or with LMS tunes and nothing. This isn't just several hours one day, I've been going at it for 3 days in a row now...

I think the risk is extraordinarily low and your more likely to have an infant mortality failure. Otherwise, as originally stated, I would not consider a tune other than Ford Racing due risk and the protection the warranty provides. Also, warranty issues unrelated to the PCM, such as an alignment issue, are still covered without question, which is far more likely than your engine grenading, especially if you use prudent methodologies (IC upgrade, spark plugs, run 93 on a 91 tune, 160F thermostat etc.).

Regs · Aug 8, 2016

TheLion said:
Further more, warranties only matter if you need them. The only real risk by using LMS is if you have an infant mortality issue. Aka a defect that would cause catastrophic failure even with the factory PCM software, which is extremely rare even in 2015's, it's non-existent in 2016's. I was a stickler for "warranty safe modifications" as many of the modifications out there pose some risk, but with a 100% success rate it's irrelevant.

Well yeah, but more importantly Ford (Ford Performance) is also assuring you by putting their money and reputation on it. LMS and the lot ain't doing jack but telling you mod at your own risk and do it off road cause half of it is not even street legal. If LMS is that awesome then they should back it up with a warranty to supplement or replace ford's. All this pomp and circumstance, accolades , and costumer loyalty means dick all.

Busser48 · Aug 8, 2016

Wow

You must be an engenier lion, you are way too calculated lol. I get where your coming from on some level, but your still taking a risk, even if it's there tune that doesn't grenade your engine, your throwing your warranty out the window. Why not go with something you get the most out of? Either way, good luck!

TheLion · Aug 9, 2016

Regs said:
Well yeah, but more importantly Ford (Ford Performance) is also assuring you by putting their money and reputation on it. LMS and the lot ain't doing jack but telling you mod at your own risk and do it off road cause half of it is not even street legal. If LMS is that awesome then they should back it up with a warranty to supplement or replace ford's. All this pomp and circumstance, accolades , and costumer loyalty means dick all.

Here's where I disagree and why I would be doing the same thing as LMS if I were them. If you have an infant mortality failure due to a manufacturing defect, which can take x amount time to manifest (some instances it's almost immediate, other times it takes 15k~20k miles), that failure will occur regardless of whose PCM software your running.

If you use LMS and the failure occurs they would be stuck eating the cost of repair which isn't their fault. They would also be required to prove it was a Ford related defect in order for Ford to handle the claim, which again takes significant time and effort, it may also hurt their relationship with Ford. Ford Racing has a bit more leeway due to their image and position, they have Ford in their name which does play into the politics of inter-corporate relationships weather we like it or not.

It's a sticky web of politics and money. Ford Racing is assuming the warranty risk, but they aren't providing you the full warranty (again, infant mortality, the warranty is just long enough to statistically mitigate them for the majority of failures that might occur, that's typically how warranties are often calculated, to cover only the most egregious defects), they may also be a bigger company with much deeper pockets who can afford to take on that risk. There's a lot at play here that people don't calculate into the equation.

Further more, has anyone considered why they are taking so long to release their software? If they delay another year, there are quite a few 2015 and 2016 mustangs that will be past 36k miles anyway...now that's only speculation, but it is a reality that due to the time span which 2015 and early 2016 mustangs have been on the road, a significant number of them are already approaching 20k to 30k miles. And it's still not out yet...

I'm not suggesting it's risk free, however the risk is extremely low. When we use 3rd party OTS PCM software, we are trusting an entity who likely doesn't have the depth of knowledge and testing as an OE R&D partner, that's their bread and butter and what makes them different, it has quite a bit of clout to it. Those 3rd party entities also have spots on their record, which is why I wouldn't consider them, some more than others.

LMS also has a level of statistical data gathering to understand approximate power limitations of the particular engines due to repeatable in-house testing failures and their root causes.

Remember with the Ford Racing warranty, your only getting 36k, not the 60k. If they are dropping the warranty to 36k by the same reasoning used above they are not fully standing by the warranty either. That would protect you against most of Ford's infant mortality failures due to manufacturing defects, however it would not protect you against longer term failures and you would be in the same boat. Nor would quite a few of the 2015's even qualify for the warranty at this point. I think Juben said he had 50k on his 2015 already. The average mileage is 15k a year. Assuming average, most 2015 mustangs would be in the neighborhood of 21~25k already, by the end of the year approaching 30k. When we really look at the reality of the warranty, it's more psychological than anything unless you have a new 2016 build like me, but the majority do not.

Now I'm not suggesting to not wait for the FR software release, as it still has plenty of merits. It's still at the top of my list, but it's also not out...it's been promised and promised and promised...don't forget, LMS works with Ford Racing on many R&D projects, they may have worked with FR on this as well, so there is some possibility your getting very similar software between the two given their relationship regardless, but perhaps just a slightly more conservative version of what LMS provides. Different design groups have slightly different takes on how to solve problems and what risks they do and do not take into account.

BTW, Busser, you're correct on that, my degree is B.S. Electrical Engineering and I work in the gas and oil industry designing safety control systems for hazardous locations. Cars are my hobby to help me keep my sanity between family (I have an adopted 7 year old that keeps us super busy, my bum 22 year old college brother renting a room from me this year and also looking to adopt another!), work and everything else life throws at you. It's something I can do every day, because I have to drive to work every day, drive to run errands, see family etc. Car is a perfect hobby that integrates nicely into daily life. But I digress...

There's always risk. Also, Ford Racing can deny you your warranty if you use any modifications outside of what they sell, which is pretty much a tune and panel filter. There's always some level of risk, you step out your door your at risk, you walk in your door your at risk, you drive your car your at risk...each person has to decide the level of risk they find acceptable. In this instance I have found the level of risk to be extremely low, low enough that it's acceptable to me and others sitting on the fence may also want to consider this great alternative.

Not only that, but I think Ford would have a heck of a time blaming the PCM software on a manufacturing failure whose cause can be proven by the evidence of the failure, especially when your running PCM software from one of their own development and testing partners! The same cannot be said for 3rd party entities.

And no, LMS has not paid me to say anything, but I've spoken with them quite extensively trying to dig out as much information on who they are, what they do and their record. I've tried my best to find dirt and have not succeeded. I think if your going to take a risk, its very small with LMS comparatively, even smaller if your running a 2016 build mustang, which have no blown engines thus far, modified or stock. Again, 100% success rate is extremely difficult to maintain. They advertise that as proof of not only the quality, but safety of their work.

What other PCM software developer is adding in additional safeguards above what the factory software has? Again, warranties only matter if you have a failure. Your looking for INSURANCE, I'm looking for ASSURANCE. One is valuable only after the fact while the other is preventative.

Take for example the inter cooler upgrade, that's a warranty "violator" right there, yet we are upgrading the IC's for two reasons: 1. resolve the heat soak issue and make full power even when we push the car in track like conditions 2. to provide a greater margin against knock, cooler air allows lower cylinder heat temps as well as more aggressive timing (meaning you have greater room to back off as well). How about the catch can? Same thing, it's added safety and performance.

Perhaps my take on what is acceptable and not is a little different and has actually changed as I learn more about the car's design, statistical failure rates, causes and preventative measures etc. Instead of relying on the warranty, I'm relying on my intelligence to add in safe guards above what is already present. The only risk condition is a major defect in the piston heads, rings or rods that would cause a catastrophic failure, which is exceedingly rare, we'er talking fractions of a percent.

At any rate, it's an alternative I think people should at least consider seriously, for some on the forum with 2015's, there's no warranty with the Ford Racing tune regardless because they are several cars with 40k~50k miles already, in which case I don't see an advantage of the Ford Racing tune other than knowing if your mileage was lower you WOULD have HAD a warranty after upgrading...yah, there's quite a bit here, but I'm simply making a case as to what I have found to be the best current solution to balancing performance without sacrificing reliability and this is what I have found along with the other changes mentioned in the 2.3L TST Optamization Thread.

clubamericalara · Aug 9, 2016

so you've only consulted with LMS? no other tuners? hmm.

Turbong · Aug 10, 2016

TheLion said:
Here's where I disagree and why I would be doing the same thing as LMS if I were them. If you have an infant mortality failure due to a manufacturing defect, which can take x amount time to manifest (some instances it's almost immediate, other times it takes 15k~20k miles), that failure will occur regardless of whose PCM software your running.

If you use LMS and the failure occurs they would be stuck eating the cost of repair which isn't their fault. They would also be required to prove it was a Ford related defect in order for Ford to handle the claim, which again takes significant time and effort, it may also hurt their relationship with Ford. Ford Racing has a bit more leeway due to their image and position, they have Ford in their name which does play into the politics of inter-corporate relationships weather we like it or not.

It's a sticky web of politics and money. Ford Racing is assuming the warranty risk, but they aren't providing you the full warranty (again, infant mortality, the warranty is just long enough to statistically mitigate them for the majority of failures that might occur, that's typically how warranties are often calculated, to cover only the most egregious defects), they may also be a bigger company with much deeper pockets who can afford to take on that risk. There's a lot at play here that people don't calculate into the equation.

Further more, has anyone considered why they are taking so long to release their software? If they delay another year, there are quite a few 2015 and 2016 mustangs that will be past 36k miles anyway...now that's only speculation, but it is a reality that due to the time span which 2015 and early 2016 mustangs have been on the road, a significant number of them are already approaching 20k to 30k miles. And it's still not out yet...

I'm not suggesting it's risk free, however the risk is extremely low. When we use 3rd party OTS PCM software, we are trusting an entity who likely doesn't have the depth of knowledge and testing as an OE R&D partner, that's their bread and butter and what makes them different, it has quite a bit of clout to it. Those 3rd party entities also have spots on their record, which is why I wouldn't consider them, some more than others.

LMS also has a level of statistical data gathering to understand approximate power limitations of the particular engines due to repeatable in-house testing failures and their root causes.

Remember with the Ford Racing warranty, your only getting 36k, not the 60k. If they are dropping the warranty to 36k by the same reasoning used above they are not fully standing by the warranty either. That would protect you against most of Ford's infant mortality failures due to manufacturing defects, however it would not protect you against longer term failures and you would be in the same boat. Nor would quite a few of the 2015's even qualify for the warranty at this point. I think Juben said he had 50k on his 2015 already. The average mileage is 15k a year. Assuming average, most 2015 mustangs would be in the neighborhood of 21~25k already, by the end of the year approaching 30k. When we really look at the reality of the warranty, it's more psychological than anything unless you have a new 2016 build like me, but the majority do not.

Now I'm not suggesting to not wait for the FR software release, as it still has plenty of merits. It's still at the top of my list, but it's also not out...it's been promised and promised and promised...don't forget, LMS works with Ford Racing on many R&D projects, they may have worked with FR on this as well, so there is some possibility your getting very similar software between the two given their relationship regardless, but perhaps just a slightly more conservative version of what LMS provides. Different design groups have slightly different takes on how to solve problems and what risks they do and do not take into account.

BTW, Busser, you're correct on that, my degree is B.S. Electrical Engineering and I work in the gas and oil industry designing safety control systems for hazardous locations. Cars are my hobby to help me keep my sanity between family (I have an adopted 7 year old that keeps us super busy, my bum 22 year old college brother renting a room from me this year and also looking to adopt another!), work and everything else life throws at you. It's something I can do every day, because I have to drive to work every day, drive to run errands, see family etc. Car is a perfect hobby that integrates nicely into daily life. But I digress...

There's always risk. Also, Ford Racing can deny you your warranty if you use any modifications outside of what they sell, which is pretty much a tune and panel filter. There's always some level of risk, you step out your door your at risk, you walk in your door your at risk, you drive your car your at risk...each person has to decide the level of risk they find acceptable. In this instance I have found the level of risk to be extremely low, low enough that it's acceptable to me and others sitting on the fence may also want to consider this great alternative.

Not only that, but I think Ford would have a heck of a time blaming the PCM software on a manufacturing failure whose cause can be proven by the evidence of the failure, especially when your running PCM software from one of their own development and testing partners! The same cannot be said for 3rd party entities.

And no, LMS has not paid me to say anything, but I've spoken with them quite extensively trying to dig out as much information on who they are, what they do and their record. I've tried my best to find dirt and have not succeeded. I think if your going to take a risk, its very small with LMS comparatively, even smaller if your running a 2016 build mustang, which have no blown engines thus far, modified or stock. Again, 100% success rate is extremely difficult to maintain. They advertise that as proof of not only the quality, but safety of their work.

What other PCM software developer is adding in additional safeguards above what the factory software has? Again, warranties only matter if you have a failure. Your looking for INSURANCE, I'm looking for ASSURANCE. One is valuable only after the fact while the other is preventative.

Take for example the inter cooler upgrade, that's a warranty "violator" right there, yet we are upgrading the IC's for two reasons: 1. resolve the heat soak issue and make full power even when we push the car in track like conditions 2. to provide a greater margin against knock, cooler air allows lower cylinder heat temps as well as more aggressive timing (meaning you have greater room to back off as well). How about the catch can? Same thing, it's added safety and performance.

Perhaps my take on what is acceptable and not is a little different and has actually changed as I learn more about the car's design, statistical failure rates, causes and preventative measures etc. Instead of relying on the warranty, I'm relying on my intelligence to add in safe guards above what is already present. The only risk condition is a major defect in the piston heads, rings or rods that would cause a catastrophic failure, which is exceedingly rare, we'er talking fractions of a percent.

At any rate, it's an alternative I think people should at least consider seriously, for some on the forum with 2015's, there's no warranty with the Ford Racing tune regardless because they are several cars with 40k~50k miles already, in which case I don't see an advantage of the Ford Racing tune other than knowing if your mileage was lower you WOULD have HAD a warranty after upgrading...yah, there's quite a bit here, but I'm simply making a case as to what I have found to be the best current solution to balancing performance without sacrificing reliability and this is what I have found along with the other changes mentioned in the 2.3L TST Optamization Thread.

I have read a lot of what you have written before, a lot of what you have said makes sense, but it seems your logic is starting to break down for justification. Out side of FR tune for 36k there is no other warranty no matter how close the tuner worked with FR. If it breaks you will pay whether LMS or tune+ makes no difference, once you flash it your warranty is instantly voided most certainly. You can't compare something as simple as a catch can which Ford has already made it a recommendation and something that is easily reversible or an IC which does nothing other than give better cooling (also reversible) to a tune that is certain warranty destroyer. Also why are you only taking to LMS? How do you know others tuners don't use the same precautions or better? How do they compare? Maybe it's just luck, the fact the they have less tuned cars compared to other tuners?

ypena02 · Aug 10, 2016

Turbong said:
I have read a lot of what you have written before, a lot of what you have said makes sense, but it seems your logic is starting to break down for justification. Out side of FR tune for 36k there is no other warranty no matter how close the tuner worked with FR. If it breaks you will pay whether LMS or tune+ makes no difference, once you flash it your warranty is instantly voided most certainly. You can't compare something as simple as a catch can which Ford has already made it a recommendation and something that is easily reversible or an IC which does nothing other than give better cooling (also reversible) to a tune that is certain warranty destroyer. Also why are you only taking to LMS? How do you know others tuners don't use the same precautions or better? How do they compare? Maybe it's just luck, the fact the they have less tuned cars compared to other tuners?

Damn, now he's going to write a 10,000 word response to this post LOL

TEXAS HEAT · Aug 10, 2016

ypena02 said:
Damn, now he's going to write a 10,000 word response to this post LOL

:lol:

TEXAS HEAT · Aug 10, 2016

Turbong said:
I have read a lot of what you have written before, a lot of what you have said makes sense, but it seems your logic is starting to break down for justification.

^^^ This!

It's funny how we begin to rationalize things when the "Mod Bug" hits!!

I know this pain...:frusty:

Busser48 · Aug 10, 2016

The only companies who truly work and develop cars for factory cars, are the ones offering warranties. Like roush, ford racing, Saleen. No matter the claims of livernoise, and I'm not disputing them, they are nowhere near on the level as these other companies. Just do research as far as what customers are happy with and what customers with these cars use for majority. There are 2, basically SCT x4 is unleashed and AP is Adam. Not saying anything bad about the others, just great things about those 2. Good luck

Juben · Aug 10, 2016

Busser48 said:
The only companies who truly work and develop cars for factory cars, are the ones offering warranties. Like roush, ford racing, Saleen. No matter the claims of livernoise, and I'm not disputing them, they are nowhere near on the level as these other companies.

Dang it, Jed! You've just opened Pandora's box!

Livernois Motorsports · Aug 10, 2016

That is actually not factual.

What we do is not the same as what the companies that you named do. They are hyper-focused on making production parts. We do R&D, and that work is a completely different ball of wax comparatively. We are not even in the same sector of the business as any of they are, and vice versa. Where we do production, performance, reliability and consultative work they make the parts for the platforms that we consult on. It is a little like, which came first the chicken or the egg?

JamesinLittleSilver · Aug 10, 2016

Turbong said:
I have read a lot of what you have written before, a lot of what you have said makes sense, but it seems your logic is starting to break down for justification. Out side of FR tune for 36k there is no other warranty no matter how close the tuner worked with FR. If it breaks you will pay whether LMS or tune+ makes no difference, once you flash it your warranty is instantly voided most certainly. You can't compare something as simple as a catch can which Ford has already made it a recommendation and something that is easily reversible or an IC which does nothing other than give better cooling (also reversible) to a tune that is certain warranty destroyer. Also why are you only taking to LMS? How do you know others tuners don't use the same precautions or better? How do they compare? Maybe it's just luck, the fact the they have less tuned cars compared to other tuners?

Roush does let you "buy" a warranty for what it is worth...basically doubles the price of the tune.

I agree with you on the IC and catch can voiding warranties. I don't see how they can just void it without proving your upgrade did something to stress the engine in a way the base IC didn't....would seem the opposite to me. Now if you had a catch can and didn't empty it that would do it.

Not you but why bust his chops for just dealing with one tuner....what is Lion a Consumer Reports of Tuners?

Great discussion.

If I were to tune....rather when... I will go with FR to keep what warranty I can. And also what assurance I can.

Busser48 · Aug 10, 2016

Juben said:
Dang it, Jed! You've just opened Pandora's box!

I made sure I put " I'm not disputing their claims" and I'm not just offering a logical conclusion, but I self admittedly am far from an expert on the matter

clubamericalara · Aug 10, 2016

LMS should start with upgrading their tuning device.. garbage and i've seen some fellow ecobooster customers have a heck of a time trying to sell it. for the $600 price you should at least include a warranty if your not gonna include a decent device.

Ford Racing ProCal Tune

TheLion

Well-Known Member

Regs

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Busser48

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TheLion

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clubamericalara

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Turbong

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ypena02

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TEXAS HEAT

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TEXAS HEAT

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Busser48

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Juben

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Livernois Motorsports

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JamesinLittleSilver

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Busser48

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clubamericalara

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