Damper install question

CeleronXXX · Jan 21, 2017

After a lot of aggravation and finally ordering the mmr install bolt, I believe I finally have my Ati damper on correctly. I am however worried that it may not be completely pressed on due to the gap inside the hub from the crank about to where the damper bolt washer sits. It feels like it won't press any further and also appears to line up with the rest of the accessory drive. The AFP damper bolt is only catching half its threads but that could be normal. Any body who's installed one care to share?

db252 · Jan 21, 2017

I've done the same but without the aggravation. The MMR bolt will install it only so far until the threads bottom out in the crank and then the ARP bolt takes over just like it seems you did. Some heat the hub before putting it on but all I did was lubricate the hub and crank shaft plus apply the ford silicone to the key way. Torquing down the ARP bolt should get you all the way there. Checking alignment between the ATI and A/C should give you a good assessment. It sounds like you are good. Do you have any pics?

CeleronXXX · Jan 21, 2017

I'm actually running it with out the ac hub. But it does appear to line up with the water pump. When I switched to the rap bolt I only got a few turns out of it, any more than that feels like it is going to start stripping threads. If it weren't for that gap and the fact that the rap bolt is only catching half its threads I'd feel confident it was on all the way. I know the damper hub has to be pressed against the crank spocket hold it in place. Unfortunately now there is no way to see that

Roh92cp · Jan 21, 2017

I had the same issue but with a threaded 12 mm by 1.5 threaded 6" rod. I used the this same rod twice before with no issue but with the ATI instal it was much harder. I've heard the ATI has a tighter fit and of course this time I forgot the lube although I did use heat. Anyway when drawing it on with the instal rod it was much tighter and harder to turn then previous instals. Well I ended up stopping too soon and when I tired to toque the ARP bolt down it kept turning and turning. I reach the acquired torque, but then was worried it wasn't seated so I torqued it past it's torque setting to make sure, then turned it back out and once again set the torque to 100 ftlb final setting. I also checked the alignment with the water pump pulley to make sure it was seated.

Question did you use lube?

CeleronXXX · Jan 21, 2017

I used a heat gun on the hub for about 20 mins and then applied anti seize to the crank snout. I then used the install bolt until it bottomed out, quickly switch to the arp bolt, got a few turns on it, and than it got to a point where it would no longer move and felt like anymore pressure would begin to strip threads. I then removed the arp bolt and checked to see how deep the threads went and noticed I have about a half inch of unused threads and a half inch gap from the crank snout to the end of the hub. I then checked alignment which looks good and torqued the arp bolt to 110 ft lbs. it appears to be right but I keep doubting myself and am not convinced it should press a little further. I never thought this would be the hardest part of the opg install by it has been. First time I welded a bolt to the stock bolt for install and snapped it off, second time I used the threaded rod and stripes that, and now I am here.

CeleronXXX · Jan 21, 2017

Well just an update, car started and runs great, so I guess it's right, belt is aligned and not trying to hop off also

Roh92cp · Jan 21, 2017

CeleronXXX said:
I used a heat gun on the hub for about 20 mins and then applied anti seize to the crank snout. I then used the install bolt until it bottomed out, quickly switch to the arp bolt, got a few turns on it, and than it got to a point where it would no longer move and felt like anymore pressure would begin to strip threads. I then removed the arp bolt and checked to see how deep the threads went and noticed I have about a half inch of unused threads and a half inch gap from the crank snout to the end of the hub. I then checked alignment which looks good and torqued the arp bolt to 110 ft lbs. it appears to be right but I keep doubting myself and am not convinced it should press a little further. I never thought this would be the hardest part of the opg install by it has been. First time I welded a bolt to the stock bolt for install and snapped it off, second time I used the threaded rod and stripes that, and now I am here.

Hmmm why 110 torque ARP calls for 100 with lube. Did you use loctite?

CeleronXXX · Jan 21, 2017

I used the lube that came with the arp bolt. I looked around for the torque spec and that's what I can up with. Forums though so wasn't 100%

Excelerater · Jan 21, 2017

Roh92cp said:
Hmmm why 110 torque ARP calls for 100 with lube. Did you use loctite?

ARP Bolt lube is the best,been using it for decades ARP hardware torque specs are based around theyre lube,plain oil may need more torque.

never use locktight on a balancer bolt

Roh92cp · Jan 21, 2017

Excelerater said:
ARP Bolt lube is the best,been using it for decades ARP hardware torque specs are based around theyre lube,plain oil may need more torque.

never use locktight on a balancer bolt

It's funny how this loctite changes even with tech departments. I didn't use loctite, but last week contacted ATI and ask with ARP bolt what to use and ATI said loctite on the theads only, but Whipple Tech who uses ATI 10 rib says instal with lube only. APR says lube, but could use loctite but didn't have a torquenspec for loctite. I guess it's still anyone's guess what is better to use.:shrug:

Bartly · Jan 22, 2017

Roh92cp said:
It's funny how this loctite changes even with tech departments. I didn't use loctite, but last week contacted ATI and ask with ARP bolt what to use and ATI said loctite on the theads only, but Whipple Tech who uses ATI 10 rib says instal with lube only. APR says lube, but could use loctite but didn't have a torquenspec for loctite. I guess it's still anyone's guess what is better to use.:shrug:

I'm with you, have read other posts even by other manufacturers saying to locktite it. It sure is a gray area.

Excelerater · Jan 22, 2017

Roh92cp said:
It's funny how this loctite changes even with tech departments. I didn't use loctite, but last week contacted ATI and ask with ARP bolt what to use and ATI said loctite on the theads only, but Whipple Tech who uses ATI 10 rib says instal with lube only. APR says lube, but could use loctite but didn't have a torquenspec for loctite. I guess it's still anyone's guess what is better to use.:shrug:

Well first off,if the bolt is lubed loctite wont really do much anyways
because it will get lost in the grease
but the bolt is a fine thread and that crank is a lot of money to remove
and rethread if you strip those threads on the next rebuild. You guys using the bolts as a
too to draw in an your new ATI can strip the threads if you dont have enough engagement so be careful..

Roh92cp · Jan 22, 2017

Bartly said:
I'm with you, have read other posts even by other manufacturers saying to locktite it. It sure is a gray area.

I think there is way too much grey area. To get the proper torque you must use ARP lube and a good torque wrench of course. Now read below in bold from Will at Whipple Tech about dampers and damper bolt torque.

Will@Whipple said:
So sorry to hear this, Seeing the No/Low Oil pressure light come on is one of the worst feeling's in the world. Knowing the RPM and Load you where at when you seen the light come on the damage is done, I hate to say. Even if only a little metal got into the oil the bearings them self heat up so incredibly fast with no oil flow at that RPM that the Bearing Tolerances are now way to tight if not already starting metal to metal contact.

To pinpoint the exact cause of the failure is going to be difficult but seeing the broken gears and how they broke can be a telling sign, can give us a idea if it's from a First Order or Second Order engine vibration or a just a Isolated case. Also knowing the Type and Weight of oil is very important.

The ATI vs Romac Damper is a whole different topic in itself but is also a huge Factor in this. Just for informational sake all of our Testing was done with a Stock Damper on the 6 Rib configuration and when Selecting a Damper for the 10 Rib kit we needed a Damper that exceeded the Stock Torsional dampening which the ATI did and did so very well compared to other's out there.

Bolt Torque is also Insanely Critical when talking about Damper's. If over tightened or under tightened can cause this exact failure. Now in no way shape or form am I trying to put blame on any one thing, just wanting to get some more information out there.

Again so sorry to hear this, I have been in your shoes before back in the 4.6L 2V and 4V days and hate even thinking about it. If you need help with anything please let us know.

Roh92cp · Jan 22, 2017

Excelerater said:
Well first off,if the bolt is lubed loctite wont really do much anyways
because it will get lost in the grease
but the bolt is a fine thread and that crank is a lot of money to remove
and rethread if you strip those threads on the next rebuild. You guys using the bolts as a
too to draw in an your new ATI can strip the threads if you dont have enough engagement so be careful..

Not suggesting to used loctite with the ARP lube, of course that won't work, It's either or. In my case it was a mistake to draw on the damper with the ARP bolt at the end, I thought it was seated and wasn't. I'm not sure the MMR instal bolt Is the best way to instal the damper as it used threads to draw the damper on instead of a threaded rod that you thread in first then use a nut on the end to draw the damper on complety.

CeleronXXX · Jan 22, 2017

I didn't have good luck with the threaded rod method, although a little more heat might have helped that. When I used the mmr bolt I only used one washer at a time so I had 90 percent of the threads engaged, i turned it until it started to bottom out, backed it out, added another washer, and continued like that until I ran out of washers. Doing it that way uses almost all of the crank threads the entire time similar to the threaded rod. I beleive I failed with the threaded rod for two reasons. 1 I did not hear the hub enough before attempting to draw the damper on, and 2 I read the label last night on the threaded rod and it was a low carbon rod and I used a grade 10 bolt with it, which explains why it stripped so easily. I read last night that people used the stock bolt to draw the stock damper on, as this is obviously a bad idea, it does confirm now that the the Ati hub is longer explaining the larger gap, so I'm now confident I'm good to go.

Damper install question

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