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Mustang GT4.R vs Camaro (ZL1 1LE)GT4.R

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JohnZiraldo

JohnZiraldo

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Is anyone who is familiar with SCCA Trans AM racing aware of the possibility of the Mustang and Camaro GT4s being allowed to race in any of their series?
It appears to me that the focus for Trans AM is controlled cost and equality of car performance while fooling their audience into believing they are cheering for a real Mustang or Camaro.
I get it that the series is popular for the teams and drivers due to cost, but it bugs me to think that the Gen 6 looking tube-frame Mustang running in P1 is just as likely to have an LS engine under the hood as the Challenger running in P2.
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thePill

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Is anyone who is familiar with SCCA Trans AM racing aware of the possibility of the Mustang and Camaro GT4s being allowed to race in any of their series?
It appears to me that the focus for Trans AM is controlled cost and equality of car performance while fooling their audience into believing they are cheering for a real Mustang or Camaro.
I get it that the series is popular for the teams and drivers due to cost, but it bugs me to think that the Gen 6 looking tube-frame Mustang running in P1 is just as likely to have an LS engine under the hood as the Challenger running in P2.
John, the Camaro needing a full tube frame in GT and up classes won't change. The 6th Gen Camaro's structure is only about equal with the S197 and marginally improved vs. the 5th Gen.

I can't even say for sure the 18% claimed improvement is across the board. With the gimmicks such as Sub-Frame connections and cross beam support that was totally an after thought, they very well could be using the best case. The Mustang's torsion test was base, as was the ATS. They could have included that in the test then excluded it in production, nothing stops them from doing that because they are not involved in primary collision paths.

GM released the diagram for the 6th Gens inner structure, it is as bad as we thought AND, both Coupe and Vert share the piece. Amazing that the Coupe uses the convertibles construction between the latch pillar/b-pillar and the wheelhouse. Only the Sail panel (exterior panel) is different.

How cheap is that?
 

02gtnh

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We are trying to get a public, official response as to why the GT4 Camaro deleted the front bumper.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=dc3e7b6168fbc9569276c8ef0b80d49d&oe=595A3101

We know what the response will be...

Unfortunately, and as thePill stated awhile back, even the LT1 in traffic has a hard time breathing. Many Camaro fans hate to admit it but, the use of the ZL1 configuration was intentional in order to maximize airflow to the radiator.

You can see the bumper was redesigned into a ram-like bumper to open up the radiator. P.S., no AC either :lol:

There is zero confidence in the base models fascia for anything performance related. Logic should tell you this after examination of the Black Dog GT4... It is completely open and unachievable for many buyers in order to maximize :(

The 2016-'17 Camaro needs refreshed ASAP.
Here is a better pic for you.
[/URL][/IMG]

Tell us all what else is missing that is on the zl1.:doh:
 

thePill

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Here is a better pic for you.
[/URL][/IMG]

Tell us all what else is missing that is on the zl1.:doh:
You are missing the point, the bumper was totally redesigned for Motorsport. That is a modification that nobody can replicate. Remember the issues thePill presented 18 months ago? Bottom feeding? Bumper support impedes airflow?

Nothing on the ZL1 is race ready, that was stated early on.

Regardless, look at the extremes in which a Camaro needs redesigned. As I said, it needs the AC removed but they removed the bumper instead. The SS's fascia has very poor airflow and cooling.
 

thePill

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BTW

Has anyone noticed the insane amount of NVH, rattles, pops, clangs and bings that people are complaining about as we speak.

thePill was very specific about chassis rigidity, this was the first time I had paid any visit to Camaro6, in the "Issues/Recall/Warranty" section... WOW!!!

If I could simply provide proof instantaneously, I would put this to rest. With only a single official picture of the Camaro Alpha released by Chevy and the Inner Structure available on GM Parts, we confirmed quite a bit of metal had been removed.

If you look at the Inner Structure on GM Parts dot com, you will notice the "REINFORCEMENT" engineered into this area. The replacement parts are actually called reinforcement AND, in this small area, there are TWO sets of reinforcement labeled part #8-9 and 11-12 I think.

This is highly irregular for a Sports Coupe built after 2000, most Sedan conversions had reinforced this area since the 1960's. The Camaro removed ALL of that metal and garnered zero of the ATS-V's reinforcement at the Hinge Pillar/A-Pillar/Upper Cradle Arm. You will also notice that the ATS's V6 upper cradle arms were used, again, with zero redesign or reinforcement, and riveted the upper arms into place like the ATS. Unfortunately, the ATS-V received rigidity improvements up to 25% yet the 1SS, 2SS and even the 1LE didn't get that critical support.


The original report was good, thePill was correct on both platform accusations as well as dimensional layout. The '17 1LE was what the 2016 1SS was until the rotors/tires were decreased, everything was made an option and most of the Camaro's reinforcement that should have been integrated, was removed to achieve the 3680lbs. All of that reinforcement was suppose to stay off BUT, once the 1LE got rubber on it, the platform did the twist. The 1LE was originally intended on being more Track focused and more lightweighting (saved for the ZL1LE). The '17 1LE is a $39,995 car, taking on some of the Vert/ZL1 support caused the MSRP to jump. I have no idea why a 1LE added $7500 to the 1SS other than making up lost profits.

Another thing forgotten, thePill reported the Camaro Motorsport Program getting squashed. I know what you're thinking, there is a GT4... but I meant a factory backed effort. The Motorsport Program was cut and immediately afterwards the "Z/28" Program got the axe while the ZL1 and 1LE were smushed together to survive the model year. I would need access to the numbers BUT, it appears that the 4cyl Camaro could get trimmed from the lineup in order to save money. I wasn't aware of this BUT, appearently, the 4cyl Camaro is GM worst selling 4cyl. Don't know why I thought it was #2...



...well... I guess it is #2 after all :lol:
 

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traxiii

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Here is a better pic for you.
[/URL][/IMG]

Tell us all what else is missing that is on the zl1.:doh:
Looks like my friends Audi.
 

02gtnh

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You are missing the point, the bumper was totally redesigned for Motorsport. That is a modification that nobody can replicate. Remember the issues thePill presented 18 months ago? Bottom feeding? Bumper support impedes airflow?

Nothing on the ZL1 is race ready, that was stated early on.

Regardless, look at the extremes in which a Camaro needs redesigned. As I said, it needs the AC removed but they removed the bumper instead. The SS's fascia has very poor airflow and cooling.
Looks to me that they eliminated the auxiliary coolers and installed one center cooler to simplify the set up for GT4 class. They closed the sides in, so airflow only comes from the front center, not the whole grill like the zl1. So to get the airflow they took out, the center portion of bumper out to get the same volume of flow. It made the car lighter and less complicated by taking out the auxiliary coolers. Nothing that doesn't pass gt4 rules. The zl1 uses all the coolers, so the bumper bar isn't a issue. :cheers:
 

Coyote Red

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The 1st. mod I do for any sports car is suspension, hence my CBoo5 & CB006 from BMR. Thanks for putting this thread up as it is very informative as to OEM structural failures.
Heck, engineers can't even design streets that will run off rain water, ha! Hydro-mama!
 

68fbjjz109

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I don't think the 4 cylinder Camaro is getting canceled. In fact I think there is another performance variant running around up here.
 

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You are missing the point, the bumper was totally redesigned for Motorsport. That is a modification that nobody can replicate. Remember the issues thePill presented 18 months ago? Bottom feeding? Bumper support impedes airflow?

Nothing on the ZL1 is race ready, that was stated early on.

Regardless, look at the extremes in which a Camaro needs redesigned. As I said, it needs the AC removed but they removed the bumper instead. The SS's fascia has very poor airflow and cooling.
Increasing air flow is pretty standard stuff on a race car, even the Mustangs front is not factory.
 

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thePill

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Increasing air flow is pretty standard stuff on a race car, even the Mustangs front is not factory.
No...

You are completely missing the point, the Camaro's front bumper beam has been deleted in order to improve cooling.

That is a requirement for proper cooling for this particular set up. The Camaro design does not permit air to escape underhood.
 

thePill

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Looks to me that they eliminated the auxiliary coolers and installed one center cooler to simplify the set up for GT4 class. They closed the sides in, so airflow only comes from the front center, not the whole grill like the zl1. So to get the airflow they took out, the center portion of bumper out to get the same volume of flow. It made the car lighter and less complicated by taking out the auxiliary coolers. Nothing that doesn't pass gt4 rules. The zl1 uses all the coolers, so the bumper bar isn't a issue. :cheers:
They went with a larger radiator which is more efficient and lighter than multiple exchangers.

This picture illustrates the issue quite well, you can imagine the fascia with an AC Condenser and Exchanger in front of it. As you can plainly see, the upper grill area is very, very thin and it restricts airflow to an OEM ZL1 during spirited driving.

As I said before, this area needs refreshed asap to something more ATS/CTS. There is a good possibility, when the SS and 1LE are opened up like the ZL1, they won't require auxiliary coolers.

The whole reason auxiliary coolers are utilized is in the picture you posted, air flow isn't getting into the radiator. The GT4 doesn't require them because Chevy redesigned the grill area, deleted the bumper beam, deleted the AC and FI exchanger. If the SS fascia was used, chances are they would need to run additional coolers like OEM.
 

02gtnh

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They went with a larger radiator which is more efficient and lighter than multiple exchangers.

This picture illustrates the issue quite well, you can imagine the fascia with an AC Condenser and Exchanger in front of it. As you can plainly see, the upper grill area is very, very thin and it restricts airflow to an OEM ZL1 during spirited driving.

As I said before, this area needs refreshed asap to something more ATS/CTS. There is a good possibility, when the SS and 1LE are opened up like the ZL1, they won't require auxiliary coolers.

The whole reason auxiliary coolers are utilized is in the picture you posted, air flow isn't getting into the radiator. The GT4 doesn't require them because Chevy redesigned the grill area, deleted the bumper beam, deleted the AC and FI exchanger. If the SS fascia was used, chances are they would need to run additional coolers like OEM.
Um, didn't I just say that.:doh: the single radiator is lighter and less complicated, that's what race teams do. These race cars don't race stock cars or parts. i don't know why you seem to care so much about a car you don't own or drive or even like. The Camaro does very well in stock form and does well in race form, deal with it. Everything that you have said the YOU believe is a issue, (weight, bracing, and cooling) has not been a issue to no one, or has been proved to be a issue. Just admit GM made a very well performance car. Some don't like the looks or visibility, but none can argue performance.:cheers:
 

traxiii

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New Balance of Performance changes fro COTA

Just looked at the BoP for COTA race, and the Mustang gets to carry another 20kg since Sebring, putting it at a hefty 1540kg and now has a restrictor plate too, 61mm. I'm assuming that they are the minor adjustments the SRO put on the Mustang to bring it in as a true GT4???

The Camaro comes in at 1495kg with a 58mm plate. The Mustang gets a half liter more fuel at 79.5L to the chevy's 79L.

The McLaren picks up 30kg to 1505kg they also carry by far the most fuel at 98.5L.

Everyone else stays the same.
Aston Martin 1360kg 70L fuel
Porsche Cayman GT4 CS MR 1295kg 74L fuel
Porsche Cayman GT4 CS GS 1355kg 74L fuel
 
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traxiii

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