Thoughts on replacing Torsen for a clutch type LSD 15 GT PP

5ABI VT said:

Your welcome !

The relevance to drifting is clutch types are far easier to drift with. It makes sliding the car AND when the car loses traction when accelerating in a straight line or turn much easier to manage and control. And I don't mind some camber just not excessive camber :rant:

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If you drift with a clutch LSD, you're doing something wrong.

Most professional drift cars use vastly superior vastly more complex differentials or just a straight up spool. Not to mention, I wouldn't be taking my technical information from a sport designed to slide out of control. They know how to make cars slide, spin, drift, etc. It's the counter part to traction. Great sport with some talented people, but nonetheless not applicable in a street driven sense.

More often than not, a traditional LSD is what ends up hurting people. I concur that traction being shifted from one axle to another makes an unstable situation. However, you're considering installing something in the rear end that doesn't care for turn in, wheel speed, traction, or break. A traditional LSD is going to be much more characteristic of "Give no fucks" and is more often than not what causes the car to spin the back end around.

Back to the original topics.
If I read that right you are concerned that the Torsen allowed the one wheel to spin. I came across a topic awhile ago where it was said that the Torsen would do this, but to make it stop and engage both wheels to apply some brake and that would cause the diff to lock.

Agent_S550 said:

If you drift with a clutch LSD, you're doing something wrong.

Most professional drift cars use vastly superior vastly more complex differentials or just a straight up spool. Not to mention, I wouldn't be taking my technical information from a sport designed to slide out of control. They know how to make cars slide, spin, drift, etc. It's the counter part to traction. Great sport with some talented people, but nonetheless not applicable in a street driven sense.

More often than not, a traditional LSD is what ends up hurting people. I concur that traction being shifted from one axle to another makes an unstable situation. However, you're considering installing something in the rear end that doesn't care for turn in, wheel speed, traction, or break. A traditional LSD is going to be much more characteristic of "Give no fucks" and is more often than not what causes the car to spin the back end around.

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I'm not a fan of drifting in any way but was just pointing out that a clutch type lsd is preferred for that style of driving etc. you're right that a clutch type will help a cars back end spin around powering out of a turn BUT my point here is I prefer that because it is more controllable and preferable. This is definitely something I enjoy doing in my ZR-1 but doing it in the mustang is vastly different and not in a good way. It also helps in straight line slippery conditions which is important to me because I daily my gt in rain or snow. I'm not saying the Torsen is bad .. if I tracked the car and if was a summer only car it would probably be preferred.

Omega said:

Back to the original topics.
If I read that right you are concerned that the Torsen allowed the one wheel to spin. I came across a topic awhile ago where it was said that the Torsen would do this, but to make it stop and engage both wheels to apply some brake and that would cause the diff to lock.

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Yes in the snow.. as I experienced last winter (with brand new tires) and in this winter one tire does spin. If I apply a tiny bit of e-brake from a stop and accelerate.. it gets going much easier and faster in a straight line. While this works.. I think it's kind of stupid to have to be applying an ebrake when I drive in snow .

Again I don't think the Torsen is bad at all. I think for inclement weather and for wanting to have fun with the car and controlling slides like I do a clutch type is the answer.

I've emailed and spoke to auburn today and there are some options out there :hail:

one tire spinning easier than the other is exactly what any limited slip differentials going to do. it's going to send more power to the one tire that's easiest to spin. my point was originally if you're having issues in taking off in a straight line or when cornering it's been well-documented that the differential bushings deflect as well as the Cradle bushings which causes the car to swing back and forth or have wheel hop also if the rear end it is not aligned properly it can cause a fishtail motion on a hard acceleration. unless it's warm enough outside to actually test how your car's doing any test you have in the Snows rather going to be invalid as any limited slip differential puts power down to the tire easiest to spin as it was designed that way for cornering.

if you want posi Trac for both tires to spin equally you can disable the traction control and the advance track. before doing that you might want to consider snow cables or chains or even using a different car that is all wheel or 4 wheel drive in the winter time. if you do turn off traction control try to avoid speeds above 40 miles per hour and do not accelerate in a corner on any slick surfaces such as ice rain or snow. before anyone freaks out about turning traction control off this is the standard practice for commercial drivers during winter driving as our trucks are not 4 by fours or all wheel drive

OP even with a clutch type LSD, you still will get some one wheel spin. The clutch type LSD still relies on the resistance difference between the two wheels. It does not "lock up" like some other type of "locking diff". There is a difference between LSD and locking diff.

5ABI VT said:

Well, I hate the Torsen Period. In fact I believe its one reason Mustangs crash so often :doh:. In the rain and snow (My Gt is my dd) It is pretty useless and can be downright dangerous spinning only one tire which doesnt help in deeper snow or packed snow/ice and it gets tiring having to use some ebrake all the time to get going :tsk:. When applying power at speed on several occasions Ive gotten this car to slide a little and it can be pretty awful at times as the torsen will spin one tire then as you counter steer shoot power to the other wheel and whip the car the other way. I just prefer the clutch type diffs.
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Are these winter tires?

I would trade differentials if you were local. I have 3.55 with LSD. I would prefer 3.73 with Torsen. Or even 4.11 with Torsen.

I'll be happy to swap my Trac-Loc for someone's torsen.

wow...i'm cruising all over the place in 3" of snow with 3:73s and I've had not one single spin or slide, and never got stuck.

Learn to drive.

Imagine that.

BmacIL said:

I'll be happy to swap my Trac-Loc for someone's torsen.

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If you are serious, I might consider that. I'm about 2 hours south of you.

Stang-15 said:

If you are serious, I might consider that. I'm about 2 hours south of you.

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I've definitely put getting a loaded 3.73 & torsen pumpkin on my list of future mods, but definitely fairly far down the list if purchasing brand new.

I'd be game as long as it's a pumpkin swap. Respacing everything and getting lash set isn't something I want to personally tackle. I have the 3.31 gears, though, so we both would also have to figure out how to reprogram stuff (I think you can change it in the as-built data).

I don't drive on the highway all that often anymore, so the fuel economy benefits of the 3.31s are nearly negated for 95% of my miles.

Torsen differentials are not designed to "lock up"

The whole point of a torque biasing differential is to use what little torque the low traction side requires to slip in order to turn the high traction side and move. They are not meant to be thrust into intentional oversteer situations.

I also don't think the OP is fighting the differential as much as the traction control which modulates the brakes to keep the vehicle out of a skid.

jasonstang said:

OP even with a clutch type LSD, you still will get some one wheel spin. The clutch type LSD still relies on the resistance difference between the two wheels. It does not "lock up" like some other type of "locking diff". There is a difference between LSD and locking diff.

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I understand that there is some spin. different types of diffs can be setup to allow certain amounts of slippage etc. With a clutch type setup one will spin and the clutch plates will heat up and grab much like a clutch disk between a pressure plate and flywheel. When one tire spins.. some slip will occur before the plates lockup and both tires will spin. This is why a clutch type is superior that a torsen in straight line on slippery surfaces.

VinnAY said:

wow...i'm cruising all over the place in 3" of snow with 3:73s and I've had not one single spin or slide, and never got stuck.

Learn to drive.

Imagine that.

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How about you learn to read? Im not sliding or spinning all over the place out of control. This discussion is about the characteristics of the Torsen which I do not like and clearly you do not understand. Most people wouldn't notice the difference between a clutch type or torsen but I do. Maybe you need to drive yours harder? Just be careful of the crowds ;)

TexasRebel said:

Torsen differentials are not designed to "lock up"

The whole point of a torque biasing differential is to use what little torque the low traction side requires to slip in order to turn the high traction side and move. They are not meant to be thrust into intentional oversteer situations.

I also don't think the OP is fighting the differential as much as the traction control which modulates the brakes to keep the vehicle out of a skid.

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I agree with you fully. Intentional oversteer situations.. 'can' result in loss of control.. much like all the mustang memes we've had the pleasure of seeing this year :lol: People try to burn out and slide the car leaving a parking lot and by nature the Torsen is shooting torque to the wheels with grip and it can result in some snaky behavior. Perhaps I just like to have too much fun with the car and don't like how it behaves when sliding it around and ill chalk it up to personal preference. As I said before if I tracked the car in the summertime with excellent tires and had the grip I wouldn't be wanting to swap it out. But for the way I drive the car Id like to look at other options.

5ABI VT said:

... much like all the mustang memes we've had the pleasure of seeing this year :lol: People try to burn out and slide the car leaving a parking lot and by nature the Torsen ...

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I think most if not all these are supercharged mustangs.

5ABI VT said:

Well, I hate the Torsen Period. In fact I believe its one reason Mustangs crash so often :doh:. In the rain and snow (My Gt is my dd) It is pretty useless and can be downright dangerous spinning only one tire which doesnt help in deeper snow or packed snow/ice and it gets tiring having to use some ebrake all the time to get going :tsk:.

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are you running winter tires or A/S tires ?

5ABI VT said:

I understand that there is some spin. different types of diffs can be setup to allow certain amounts of slippage etc. With a clutch type setup one will spin and the clutch plates will heat up and grab much like a clutch disk between a pressure plate and flywheel. When one tire spins.. some slip will occur before the plates lockup and both tires will spin. This is why a clutch type is superior that a torsen in straight line on slippery surfaces.

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This is not at all how a clutch works. A pressure plate is aptly named because it applies pressure to the friction disks. There are two types of "clutch type" LSDs. The first, like the Eaton Posi-Trac applies constant pressure to the clutches. These act like solid axles until there is enough torque differential to force them to slip. The problem is they wear out rather quickly and turn into an open differential. The second is a centrifugal acting LSD. As the axles rotate, a difference in the rotational velocity causes the pressure plates to act on the friction disks. These don't wear out nearly as fast as the fixed pressure type, but allow a lot more spin. As far as limiting slip and mechanically pushing power to the high traction axle shaft the torsen can't be beat with current technology. Torque vectoring isn't mechanical, but electrical.

5ABI VT said:

I agree with you fully. Intentional oversteer situations.. 'can' result in loss of control.. much like all the mustang memes we've had the pleasure of seeing this year :lol: People try to burn out and slide the car leaving a parking lot and by nature the Torsen is shooting torque to the wheels with grip and it can result in some snaky behavior. Perhaps I just like to have too much fun with the car and don't like how it behaves when sliding it around and ill chalk it up to personal preference. As I said before if I tracked the car in the summertime with excellent tires and had the grip I wouldn't be wanting to swap it out. But for the way I drive the car Id like to look at other options.

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Intentional oversteer, or "drifting" is controlled loss of control. The Torsen T2 does not "shoot" torque anywhere. It pushes torque to the high-traction axle shaft based on the Torque Bias Ratio. The amount of torque is limited by the available torque on the low-traction axle shaft, and torque available at the pinion (the differential cannot create power that doesn't exist at the input). Say the driver side is on a wet patch and spins at 50 #-ft. With a TBR of 3:1 the differential would be able to provide 150 #-ft to the passenger side, but only if there is 40 #-ft (3.73:1::ring-to-pinion) at the pinion. Lift that wheel off of the ground where it takes 1 #-ft to turn the wheel and you'll only get 3 #-ft to the ground on the other side.

Your brakes are the cluprit. When traction control senses a skid it's modulating the corners to straighten the vehicle and get traction back. The C&C mishaps happen when idiots turn TC off and realize what an unnannied 400 HP can actually do.