Thoughts on replacing Torsen for a clutch type LSD 15 GT PP

Well, I hate the Torsen Period. In fact I believe its one reason Mustangs crash so often :doh:. In the rain and snow (My Gt is my dd) It is pretty useless and can be downright dangerous spinning only one tire which doesnt help in deeper snow or packed snow/ice and it gets tiring having to use some ebrake all the time to get going :tsk:. When applying power at speed on several occasions Ive gotten this car to slide a little and it can be pretty awful at times as the torsen will spin one tire then as you counter steer shoot power to the other wheel and whip the car the other way. I just prefer the clutch type diffs.

Are the non PP diffs clutch pack type? Are there any vendors who sell any beefed up clutch type LSD that will work? Wanted to just ask as I begin searching for options.i also dont need the 3.73. I just wanted the pp for the other stuff but plan to go to 3.55 or lower. Any input is appreciated !!

:cheers:

The non-PP GT cars aren't Torsen.

Brazenbuck said:

The non-PP GT cars aren't Torsen.

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they do have lsd dont they? maybe ill look for someone local and do a swap. Just figured maybe there were better alternatives out there (or stronger etc)

the non PP cars do have a LSD but it's not torsion it's Ford's in-house version. if you're having problems and the car's kicking loose have you replaced your differential bushings or added a transmission insert to see if that helps. also have you checked your rear alignment recently. have you replace the differential fluid.

IMO driving skill and/or learning how to drive better will prove a much more worthwhile improvement in rain/snow performance than a diff swap and will cost a lot less money.

It's a differential, not some black magic device created by Satan himself. It only works as good as the driver behind the wheel. Until you fix that, you can put whatever you want back there and you're still going to have problems in the snow.

You should not be spinning one wheel unless that one wheel is completely off the ground. I don't believe that you are spinning one tire in the rain and snow. I daily my PP and I have never ever spun only one wheel with the Torsen. Whenever I lose traction, both wheels spin. The thing is to manage your throttle in wet or snowy conditions. Are you still on the PZero summer tires that the PP comes with? If so, DO NOT use them for winter driving at all. The PZeros need to be nice and toasty to have any good grip and will perform poorly even in wet summer conditions. I would suggest good winter tires for the cold seasons, and a good set of summer or A/S tires for the warm seasons.

I really doubt that you will see much improvement by switching to clutch type LSD.

Also, the Mustangs are not crashing cause of the Torsen, but because people are being idiots on the road and cannot control the car when they try to floor it in first and second gears at low speeds.

Looks like the OP bought some Conti DWS for the winter, though on 7-14-16 reported that he had gone thru most of his rears already. Did you ever replace those before this season? Even so, a 285/30/20 all season is going to be a little tough in actual snow.

I have found the torsen to be quite nice in the winter with a predictable brake when it locks. Of course you do have that one corner case that if one tire has 0% grip than it is essentially an open diff. Perhaps thats the situation the OP keeps finding himself. Otherwise its worth finding what the bias ratio is, i have a feeling that the torsen actually has a closer ratio than the clutch types.

I would also be interested in the amount of camber you are running with those ridetechs. It doesn't look like you slammed it too low but it might not necessarily be advantageous for snow performance. I'm still working on getting mine dialed in and am interested as there are not that many GT PPs run in the snow ;)

I slide all over the place in snow with open diff if I want to.
It's how you drive.

Why did you even get the PP if you are just going to switch it all out?

Kahboom said:

the non PP cars do have a LSD but it's not torsion it's Ford's in-house version. if you're having problems and the car's kicking loose have you replaced your differential bushings or added a transmission insert to see if that helps. also have you checked your rear alignment recently. have you replace the differential fluid.

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No its not kicking loose at all. I just don't like the characteristics of the torsen when I kick it loose purposely. No diff bushings or trans inserts. If I replace the diff with a clutch type I will do the diff and cradle bushings.

EFI said:

IMO driving skill and/or learning how to drive better will prove a much more worthwhile improvement in rain/snow performance than a diff swap and will cost a lot less money.

It's a differential, not some black magic device created by Satan himself. It only works as good as the driver behind the wheel. Until you fix that, you can put whatever you want back there and you're still going to have problems in the snow.

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No I disagree with drivermod being a larger factor in snow performance. a clutch type lsd IS superior in the snow or on ice that's a fact. It will spin both tires.. resulting in more traction going forward. The Torsen can do the same BUT if one tire slips a little too much the other will get all the torque and its pretty much 1wd until it stops. No its not only as good as the driver. Just ask the Drfting guys why Torsens are not recommended or preferred. They are just not as predictable and easy to manage when sliding a car and that's in the dry.

mindys said:

You should not be spinning one wheel unless that one wheel is completely off the ground. I don't believe that you are spinning one tire in the rain and snow. I daily my PP and I have never ever spun only one wheel with the Torsen. Whenever I lose traction, both wheels spin. The thing is to manage your throttle in wet or snowy conditions. Are you still on the PZero summer tires that the PP comes with? If so, DO NOT use them for winter driving at all. The PZeros need to be nice and toasty to have any good grip and will perform poorly even in wet summer conditions. I would suggest good winter tires for the cold seasons, and a good set of summer or A/S tires for the warm seasons.

I really doubt that you will see much improvement by switching to clutch type LSD.

Also, the Mustangs are not crashing cause of the Torsen, but because people are being idiots on the road and cannot control the car when they try to floor it in first and second gears at low speeds.

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Theyre not crashing because of the torsen but I assure you the characteristics of the Torsen have contributed to the squirellyness (is that even a word? :lol that owners have experienced under power at speed. If you watch some videos of crashes you can see the torsen at work making a burnout and simple power slide turn into a snaky mess. People always want to blame the driver and sure... learning to slide with a Torsen is the root cause but it definitely doesn't help. I know anyone who has wiped out an s550 or almost wiped it out has experienced what Im talking about. with a heavy car with a high cog it can be a total handful.

WHen I spin it doesn't always spin both wheels. On turns in the rain I quite often punch it and let the car slide for 50 feet.. I do enjoy it . but if I don't stab it hard enough to break both it will spin and the car will accelerate as the tire with more grip (usually the outside that has weight on it if im turning left) grips and gets the torque and accelerates the car. Now that's a good thing for road course... which is why the Torsen is exceptional there. But when Im trying to have fun I don't like it :headbonk:

I wont rule out alignment. I have adjustable camber and toe arms, and did a 4 wheel alignment and corner balance on the ridetech coilovers when I put the winter wheels on. they are the conti dws-06. Definitely not as good as winter tires but in the past Ive dailied Camaros and M3s and a clutch type lsd was fantastic with all seasons. I just preferred all the plusses of an all season over a performance winter (lighter, better steering feel, cost, better tire life, better traction in the wet or dry salt covered roads which is 99% of the winter where I am). In the past I traded the snow day performance for all of those benefites which I found was acceptable.

Sooty M. said:

Looks like the OP bought some Conti DWS for the winter, though on 7-14-16 reported that he had gone thru most of his rears already. Did you ever replace those before this season? Even so, a 285/30/20 all season is going to be a little tough in actual snow.

I have found the torsen to be quite nice in the winter with a predictable brake when it locks. Of course you do have that one corner case that if one tire has 0% grip than it is essentially an open diff. Perhaps thats the situation the OP keeps finding himself. Otherwise its worth finding what the bias ratio is, i have a feeling that the torsen actually has a closer ratio than the clutch types.

I would also be interested in the amount of camber you are running with those ridetechs. It doesn't look like you slammed it too low but it might not necessarily be advantageous for snow performance. I'm still working on getting mine dialed in and am interested as there are not that many GT PPs run in the snow ;)

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Yes dws-06. I touched on it in my reply above and yes I know theyre not as good as a winter.. that much is obvious enough. In the past with my Camaro and M3 I found the clutch type diff excellent with them in the snow. Very predicatble, straight launches... it always spins both because it locks up. No Camber at all. I kick all my friends in the nutsack if they are into camber or ever mention it > I am anti-camber . It was set at -.25 or .5 if I recall. Alignment was done for max tire life because its my daily and couldn't afford to replace tires. I ended up driving them year round only because I had issues with Paul @ 365 autosports who took my $$$ deposit for summer forged wheels and 12 months later had nothing to show but excuses. :frusty:

DreadPirateJon said:

Why did you even get the PP if you are just going to switch it all out?

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I wouldn't own a mustang if it didn't have recaros. PP was mandatory even though I hated the 3.73s I wanted the better cooling and lip etc. In the end I may end up preferring to keep the Torsen and dealing with it through the winters and maybe move to a Blizzak again. For the summer Im going with 3pc forged and 11.5 wide and likely Pilot sports so I don't think Ill have an issue with traction or the Torsen.

posted this in the cell phone thread but how she sits in the winter. This is winter ride height. I plan to run 255/30 and 315/25 on the summer wheels which will bring the car down some but open up some gap. Ill be lowering it another .5 or so inch when the summers go on. These cars are like 4x4s at factory height. I cant even believe how high my front splitter is lowered this much. Designed for snow performance lol !

Torsen is great for a road course. I have to agree, though, I tend to dislike it otherwise and would rather have the wavetrac or whatever its called (at least from what I've been reading about its characteristics). Where I live, I must go up steep inclines at an angle quite often (parking garage at work, for example) and the inside rear wheel comes off the ground because of my lowered ride height and all of my subframe bracing. If I'm not going fast enough to get all the wheels back on the ground before applying power, the car will not apply power to any wheel unless I pull the parking brake, all the while it is moaning and groaning like a dying cow. Doesn't make any sense. A differential should simply send the power to the wheel that has grip if the other doesn't. One wheel CLEARLY has grip, and it will just not send power to that one if a tire comes off the ground. It makes absolutely no sense to me. But... it works great at a road course. I really don't think it gives me an advantage over someone without one, though. I won't be bothered paying to change out what really is a good differential overall though. Torsens are, apparently, dead nuts reliable even being run on cheapo conventional gear oil.

So much weirdness in this thread.

Disdain for the Torsen for a street driven vehicle in instances described on the street, interesting. Promoting the clutch-type differential for the same instances, also interesting... then it gets kinda funny with the reference to drifting (relevance!? lmao) and comes back with more lulz as the OP announces he likes BMWs but doesn't dig camber, which they ship with negative camber... so... yeah hella confusing post but lulz nonetheless

PatrickGT said:

So much weirdness in this thread.

Disdain for the Torsen for a street driven vehicle in instances described on the street, interesting. Promoting the clutch-type differential for the same instances, also interesting... then it gets kinda funny with the reference to drifting (relevance!? lmao) and comes back with more lulz as the OP announces he likes BMWs but doesn't dig camber, which they ship with negative camber... so... yeah hella confusing post but lulz nonetheless

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Your welcome !

The relevance to drifting is clutch types are far easier to drift with. It makes sliding the car AND when the car loses traction when accelerating in a straight line or turn much easier to manage and control. And I don't mind some camber just not excessive camber :rant: