What is max front camber with plates?

GTP · Aug 9, 2017

Stuntman said:
Not accurately because surface temps cool down so quickly.

You need a PROBE-type pyrometer, sticking the entire needle into the tire (in the center of a tread block and not further any less than 1" from the outer & inner edge of the tire for the outer/inner measurements).

Right, but as a novice, isn't the delta good enough for me? I.e. the temps may not be accurate but their differentials would be.

My other option is a DVM with Type-K temp probe.

NightmareMoon · Aug 9, 2017

Stuntman said:
Not accurately because surface temps cool down so quickly.

You need a PROBE-type pyrometer, sticking the entire needle into the tire (in the center of a tread block and not further any less than 1" from the outer & inner edge of the tire for the outer/inner measurements).

I think as a novice, if your laser is giving even results across the tire you're probably not too far off, but yea there was a 15-30 degree difference between my cheap IR thermometer and my buddy's probe tire pyrometer. That's a pretty big delta if you're trying to use tire temperatures to tune camber. The IR gauge will tend to show more even readings than the pyrometer will because the surface of the tire is more affected by contact with the road.

firestarter2 · Aug 9, 2017

I run 2.5 and its perfect. Based on temps.

Stuntman · Aug 9, 2017

GTP said:
Right, but as a novice, isn't the delta good enough for me? I.e. the temps may not be accurate but their differentials would be.

My other option is a DVM with Type-K temp probe.

Not at all. The surface temps change so quickly that you will be falsely low and it will not give you an accurate read on the delta.

Probes get down into the carcass of the tire but they will quickly lose relevant data which is why it's important to keep as much heat in the tires during "cool down" laps as possible -by cornering at 100% but with minimal accelerating and braking, and measure the temps asap when you come to a stop. Doing this and your last tire will read lower than the first, which means surface temps will be all but useless with an IR thermometer.

I'd still bet -3* is too much for a novice on street tires on a road course.

Competition Orange · Aug 9, 2017

I'm running -2.7 on street tires and it is boarderline too much, so I'll call it perfect. It's not nearly enough for my slicks though.

I'm in advanced group as far as skill goes.

ddozier · Aug 9, 2017

Stuntman said:
Not at all. The surface temps change so quickly that you will be falsely low and it will not give you an accurate read on the delta.

Probes get down into the carcass of the tire but they will quickly lose relevant data which is why it's important to keep as much heat in the tires during "cool down" laps as possible -by cornering at 100% but with minimal accelerating and braking, and measure the temps asap when you come to a stop. Doing this and your last tire will read lower than the first, which means surface temps will be all but useless with an IR thermometer.

I'd still bet -3* is too much for a novice on street tires on a road course.

My tire temps after 3 max effort hot laps and dive into the pits with someone on standby waiting to grab the temps ASAP. The last 2 turns prior to pit in were left hand sweepers.

This was on a left hand dominant track so we measured right front first, then right rear, then left front, and finally left rear. What I learned was at max effort I needed a little more camber in the front to make everything happy and I was running a little too much air pressure. This is on a NT-01 set. The car needed slightly more camber for the Pirelli setup. Even on the Pirelli's the car is just barley getting to -3 camber in the front.

Every track will yield slightly different results so you can end up chasing camber if you are looking for the perfect setup for each track. I like to balance everything by tire wear and prefer a good setup for most tracks vs a perfect setup for each track. I just don't have the time to dial in a setup for every track I run.

Dave

Stuntman · Aug 9, 2017

Dave, for that track I'd probably stand up the LF 0.2* LR 0.3-0.4* and add 0.2* on the right side based off those temps.

What suspension and tire size are you running? Different suspension setups, tires, and driving ability have different camber needs, this is why measuring temps is crucial for dialing in a particular car/driver/track and it's more important than pressures alone.

ddozier · Aug 9, 2017

Stuntman said:
Dave, for that track I'd probably stand up the LF 0.2* LR 0.3-0.4* and add 0.2* on the right side based off those temps.

What suspension and tire size are you running? Different suspension setups, tires, and driving ability have different camber needs, this is why measuring temps is crucial for dialing in a particular car/driver/track and it's more important than pressures alone.

Those numbers are deceiving, as this is the only left hand dominant track I seem to run on, and because the right side tires takes such a beating right before pit in. It is likely that the only real tire temp numbers that matter on this test day was right front and right rear.

This was when I was still playing with spring rates, shock settings and bar rates, I did not have any other data saved on this computer and was really trying to illustrate that at the considerably less camber setting I was running than the OP and a much stickier tire than the street tire he is running I still needed less than -3* camber.

This is what I have found for camber setup so far at least with my setup:
Street tire - Front -1.8 to -2.3* is usually enough for a fast driver, less for a novice. Near stock numbers in the rear with a -1.1 to -1.5*
R-Comp - Front -2.4 to -2.7 Rear -1.9 to -2.3*
Slick - Front -2.9 to -3.2, Rear -2.2 to -2.5

It seams the faster I get the more camber I have to add but we are talking changes of -0.1 over a season. I have things fairly sorted now with a set of NT-01s getting 35-38 25min session with proper rotation based on track layout. The Pirelli DH slicks I run are takeoffs to start but I still get about 8-12 heat cycles and when they do cord it is about 2" in from the outside edge and I almost always end up cording the front when it happens. I run all my tires 305 square so they get rotated based on wear and track layout to maximize their use. I usually rotate tires at lunch and end of the first day for the next day. It also helps that most of the tracks I run have fresh pavement.

Dave

GTP · Aug 9, 2017

So here is the deal. Last year for my one and only track day, I ran the wheels/tires in my signature. I ran almost 40psi to keep from rolling over the tires. The surface was known to virtually shred tires.

The outside shoulders were cut up bad enough that I paid to have all the tires flipped on the rims and rebalanced so that I wouldn't have to look at them.

But now the rears are cambered in another 1/2 degree, and I am about to put on camber plates up front. As I said, I would rather go back with a little too much camber, so that I don't have to pay to have tires flipped and balanced, twice.

Meanwhile the track has been repaved and the feedback is that it is much easier on tires.

I just got a 4-wheel alignment after camber bolts. The before settings averaged -1° for each wheel. So that explains the ugly tires. Now the settings are -2° rears and -2° fronts (=max). I am going back in for another alignment Monday, after installing the plates. I suppose if the fronts can do -2.8° with plates, and my backs are already at -1.9, perhaps I'll just stick with that.

Before you all say, "Why are you setting camber for appearance instead of traction?", let me repeat that I am trying to improve traction but err on the side of wearing the (already worn) inside edges. Besides some guys say that they need more than -3° up front.

Ask 10 guys what camber settings to run and you'll get ten answers, half of which are (of course), "It depends."

ddozier · Aug 9, 2017

GTP said:
Meanwhile the track has been repaved and the feedback is that it is much easier on tires.

Someone is going to Putnam in Sept with 10/10ths, you are going to love the new surface. If you are doing Putnam in Sept I will see you there.

GTP said:
Ask 10 guys what camber settings to run and you'll get ten answers, half of which are (of course), "It depends."

The reason you get so many different answers is most of them are just guessing and do not take the time to read the tires. Plus everyone is running different tires and setups. On top of that everyone drives a little different. All of these things will effect your setup and tire wear.

Dave

BmacIL · Aug 9, 2017

I would say if you can do about -2.5 front and -1.5 rear you'll be great for your tires. Shoot for +/- 0.1 on those.

GTP · Aug 9, 2017

ddozier said:
Someone is going to Putnam in Sept with 10/10ths, you are going to love the new surface. If you are doing Putnam in Sept I will see you there.

Dave

I am looking at going to Putnam on Aug 26th. Don't know about 10/10ths.

Stuntman · Aug 9, 2017

ddozier said:
Those numbers are deceiving, as this is the only left hand dominant track I seem to run on, and because the right side tires takes such a beating right before pit in. It is likely that the only real tire temp numbers that matter on this test day was right front and right rear.

This was when I was still playing with spring rates, shock settings and bar rates, I did not have any other data saved on this computer and was really trying to illustrate that at the considerably less camber setting I was running than the OP and a much stickier tire than the street tire he is running I still needed less than -3* camber.

This is what I have found for camber setup so far at least with my setup:
Street tire - Front -1.8 to -2.3* is usually enough for a fast driver, less for a novice. Near stock numbers in the rear with a -1.1 to -1.5*
R-Comp - Front -2.4 to -2.7 Rear -1.9 to -2.3*
Slick - Front -2.9 to -3.2, Rear -2.2 to -2.5

It seams the faster I get the more camber I have to add but we are talking changes of -0.1 over a season. I have things fairly sorted now with a set of NT-01s getting 35-38 25min session with proper rotation based on track layout. The Pirelli DH slicks I run are takeoffs to start but I still get about 8-12 heat cycles and when they do cord it is about 2" in from the outside edge and I almost always end up cording the front when it happens. I run all my tires 305 square so they get rotated based on wear and track layout to maximize their use. I usually rotate tires at lunch and end of the first day for the next day. It also helps that most of the tracks I run have fresh pavement.

Dave

LimeRock has a similar problem but probably even more so. To dial the car in for that track, I would still stand up the left and add more to the right based off your temps.

I think your camber settings per tire category are a good ballpark, which backs up GTP not needing >-3* of camber on street tires.

ddozier · Aug 9, 2017

GTP said:
I am looking at going to Putnam on Aug 26th. Don't know about 10/10ths.

Putnam is a much faster track now than it was before, you will see your tires build pressure quicker and to a higher level than before so make sure you plan for that. The new surface has a ton more grip. Tire wear is considerably less now than the old cheese grater surface we ran on before. Your original camber settings and tires would likely be fine after a day there now, but before the surface was so bad no amount of camber would save any tire. One of the Viper guys wasted a set of Michelin slicks in a single 25min session on the old surface. That was an expensive session.

Putnam is one of the safest tracks in the mid-west you can run. I have never run with the Indy SCCA group but the SCCA usually puts on a rather regimented event and is just the kind of environment I would recommend for a guy starting out or getting use to a new car.

Here is a video from earlier this year so you can see the changes in the track:
[ame]

10/10ths on the other hand offers a great novice experience but the advanced group can get a little aggressive. They get away with it because the track is so much safer than a lot of other tracks. The instruction with 10/10ths is top notch and their classroom work is some of the best I have seen on offer from any group. I have been driving in the advanced group for nearly 15 years but I still sit in on some of the classroom stuff from time to time.

If your day in Aug goes well sign up for the Sept event. I will be there along with about 5 other guys from St. Louis. Its always a good time.
http://www.1010thsmotorsports.com/2017-schedule.html

Dave

TennTex · Aug 10, 2017

GTP said:
I am about to install Steeda camber plates.

What max negative camber can I achieve?

If I want at least -3°, do I need to use camber bolts, too?

Noticed this post today. Note that I recently installed Steeda camber plates + Steeda Adjustables (F&R)+ Steeda dual-rate springs (F&R).

Finally got to go get a my track alignment done yesterday, but they could only get -2.1* max with these camber plates. I don't think it was an install error, so not sure what could be the cause. I have a question in with Steeda on this now.

For reference, I was trying to get to -2.5* Front, but my setup guy (a racer himself) was wanting to get me up to -3*. Was able to get -2* in the rear, about the max with factory setup. Also... 1/32" toe-out in front, 1/16" toe-in at rear.

What is max front camber with plates?

GTP

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