is -.30 total rear toe too much?

ghostnote · Feb 23, 2017

RoadRacer said:
Just so we're not living in a world of alternate facts. I stand by what I posted earlier......+1 deg toe indicates a "toe in" condition.

This cannot be correct. You know, the reason it's called toe-in and out is because it's the same as looking down at your toes and pointing them in or out.

Positive toe is when they point outward.

EDIT: I think I figured out what the problem is. The second thing cited (from tirerack) says "positive toe-in". But that's misleading. There's positive and negative toe. Or toe-in and toe-out. Conflating both leads to confusion.

Zitrosounds · Feb 23, 2017

Stuntman said:
With it now clarified that FP's alignment sheet is a type-o, your car with Toe-OUT in the rear could be quite evil and unsafe to drive.

I'd probably shoot for +.25 to +.30 toe-IN at the rear.

Clarified? Just visually looking at my rear wheels I can see toe in. So naturally took out my tape measures, levels and took a rough measurement. I most definitely have toe-in/positive toe. The settings on the car are correct and within the Ford spec.

Stuntman · Feb 23, 2017

ghostnote said:
EDIT: I think I figured out what the problem is. The second thing cited (from tirerack) says "positive toe-in". But that's misleading. There's positive and negative toe. Or toe-in and toe-out. Conflating both leads to confusion.

No, "positive toe-In" means positive toe is toe IN.

Zitrosounds said:
Clarified? Just visually looking at my rear wheels I can see toe in. So naturally took out my tape measures, levels and took a rough measurement. I most definitely have toe-in/positive toe. The settings on the car are correct and within the Ford spec.

2015 Mustang Alignment specs calls for POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. I just got my car aligned on the same hunter machine and they call Toe-IN positive.

Please re align your car with the correct, POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. Having rear toe-out is unsafe.

Zitrosounds · Feb 23, 2017

Stuntman said:
No, "positive toe-In" means positive toe is toe IN.

2015 Mustang Alignment specs calls for POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. I just got my car aligned on the same hunter machine and they call Toe-IN positive.

Please re align your car with the correct, POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. Having rear toe-out is unsafe.

I am not aligned to OEM spec. I am aligned IAW FP road course recomended specs provided with the GT350 supplement package.
My rear tires are toe in / \, I can see it and I measured to verify.

Zitrosounds · Feb 23, 2017

Stuntman said:
No, "positive toe-In" means positive toe is toe IN.

2015 Mustang Alignment specs calls for POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. I just got my car aligned on the same hunter machine and they call Toe-IN positive.

Please re align your car with the correct, POSITIVE Toe-IN at the rear. Having rear toe-out is unsafe.

Also the sheet you provided does not have the GT350 OEM factory spec

Zitrosounds · Feb 23, 2017

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76355

Ctease · Feb 23, 2017

Zitrosounds said:
So here is the FP settings again along with my alignment. If my alignment is correct then we are arguing differences in terminology. If my settings are incorrect and therefore FPs' settings, How so?...

From your alignment sheet. Looks like you dropped your car a little. This caused front toe to move from toe-in to toe-out. Rear toe moved outward but still toe-in. The alignment shop corrected the front toe. But then misaligned the rear. You have toe-out at the moment. GT toe is 0.12* +/- 0.20* which is 0.32* toe-in to -0.08* toe-out. If you read the alignment printout in small number is says "-0.09*" & "0.32*" with middle therefore being 0.12 (it's not written, only a line). Your rear toe boxes are RED meaning they are outside of factory spec at "-0.16". This is toe-out and out of spec.

If you look at the printout. Each box has a center and 2 steps. Center is on spec. First step in the correct direction is usual good. Outside of second step is bad and causes the box to turn red.

You can align to GT350R specs which is still mostly toe-in. 0.15* +/- 0.20* or 0.35* in to -0.05* out. (But it don't see what's wrong with -0.09* out if machine says it's limit).

The real question Is how does toe-in and toe-out change the handling of the car?

Zitrosounds · Feb 23, 2017

Ctease said:
From your alignment sheet. Looks like you dropped your car a little. This caused front toe to move from toe-in to toe-out. Rear toe moved outward but still toe-in. The alignment shop corrected the front toe. But then misaligned the rear. You have toe-out at the moment. GT toe is 0.12* +/- 0.20* which is 0.32* toe-in to -0.08* toe-out. If you read the alignment printout in small number is says "-0.09*" & "0.32*" with middle therefore being 0.12 (it's not written, only a line). Your rear toe boxes are RED meaning they are outside of factory spec at "-0.16". This is toe-out and out of spec.

If you look at the printout. Each box has a center and 2 steps. Center is on spec. First step in the correct direction is usual good. Outside of second step is bad and causes the box to turn red.

You can align to GT350R specs which is still mostly toe-in. 0.15* +/- 0.20* or 0.35* in to -0.05* out. (But it don't see what's wrong with -0.09* out if machine says it's limit).

The real question Is how does toe-in and toe-out change the handling of the car?

The alignment spec that was used in the sofrware was that of a GT with Track Pack. They did not have the GT350 spec
I gabe the tech both the OEM factory spec and the road course spec. Lol. The rear is toe-in lol

Zitrosounds · Feb 24, 2017

Ctease said:
From your alignment sheet. Looks like you dropped your car a little. This caused front toe to move from toe-in to toe-out. Rear toe moved outward but still toe-in. The alignment shop corrected the front toe. But then misaligned the rear. You have toe-out at the moment. GT toe is 0.12* +/- 0.20* which is 0.32* toe-in to -0.08* toe-out. If you read the alignment printout in small number is says "-0.09*" & "0.32*" with middle therefore being 0.12 (it's not written, only a line). Your rear toe boxes are RED meaning they are outside of factory spec at "-0.16". This is toe-out and out of spec.

If you look at the printout. Each box has a center and 2 steps. Center is on spec. First step in the correct direction is usual good. Outside of second step is bad and causes the box to turn red.

You can align to GT350R specs which is still mostly toe-in. 0.15* +/- 0.20* or 0.35* in to -0.05* out. (But it don't see what's wrong with -0.09* out if machine says it's limit).

The real question Is how does toe-in and toe-out change the handling of the car?

Toe in / \ More rear toe-in = forward traction, stability entering corners under braking, rear is planted, more drag, scrubs speed on straights, increases inner tire wear

Zitrosounds · Feb 24, 2017

Zitrosounds said:
Toe in / \ More rear toe-in = forward traction, stability entering corners under braking, rear is planted, more drag, scrubs speed on straights, increases tire wear

The car feels every bit as what I described. So back to my initial question and the title of this thread, is .30 rear total toe-IN too much?

TheDeadCow · Feb 24, 2017

Ctease said:
From your alignment sheet. Looks like you dropped your car a little. This caused front toe to move from toe-in to toe-out. Rear toe moved outward but still toe-in. The alignment shop corrected the front toe. But then misaligned the rear. You have toe-out at the moment. GT toe is 0.12* +/- 0.20* which is 0.32* toe-in to -0.08* toe-out. If you read the alignment printout in small number is says "-0.09*" & "0.32*" with middle therefore being 0.12 (it's not written, only a line). Your rear toe boxes are RED meaning they are outside of factory spec at "-0.16". This is toe-out and out of spec.

If you look at the printout. Each box has a center and 2 steps. Center is on spec. First step in the correct direction is usual good. Outside of second step is bad and causes the box to turn red.

You can align to GT350R specs which is still mostly toe-in. 0.15* +/- 0.20* or 0.35* in to -0.05* out. (But it don't see what's wrong with -0.09* out if machine says it's limit).

The real question Is how does toe-in and toe-out change the handling of the car?

For quick reference:

Tow "out" will increase steering response at the expense of straight line stability.

Tow "in" will increase straight line stability at the expense of steering response.

The rear is affected in the same way, although usually you only see tow "in" on the rear.

RadBOSS · Feb 24, 2017

In all my years there was never distinction whether its toe positive or toe negative. Its always been simply referred to as "toe in" or "toe out". Using that terminology there is no confusion or debate whether the wheels are both turning in or out.

Just apply the KISS rule: Keep It Simple Stupid. For most of the population in or out is easy to understand.

TheDeadCow · Feb 24, 2017

Zitrosounds said:
Toe in / \ More rear toe-in = forward traction, stability entering corners under braking, rear is planted, more drag, scrubs speed on straights, increases inner tire wear

Zitrosounds said:
The car feels every bit as what I described. So back to my initial question and the title of this thread, is .30 rear total toe-IN too much?

:clap2:I think you've answered your own question.

mattlqx · Feb 24, 2017

65sohc said:
After a month of extensive testing with a GT350R DSC just released a firmware upgrade for their Magnetuner. Recommended alignment settings are:
Camber F/R -1.2/-1.0
Toe F/R +1.0/+1.0
Caster +6.9

Not enough camber and a hell of a lot of toe. I mean maybe it'd be passable for road driving, but it'd be terrible on track.

RadBOSS · Feb 24, 2017

Zitrosounds said:
The car feels every bit as what I described. So back to my initial question and the title of this thread, is .30 rear total toe-IN too much?

Not too much according to the Ford spec sheet. If you read the sheet right, it can be as high as 0.30 + 0.20 = 0.50, and it can be less than 0.30 as well.

If you can get down to applying the scientific method then the tire characteristics will likely be more important. Straight line stability needs to be evaluated. Is it too twitchy or is it straight as an arrow. Not everyone drives the same or do they push the car hard enough to really know if one setup works better than the other. What are the tire temperatures and heat distribution. Whats the wear pattern looking like. A skid pad session might show sensitivity to toe, but to camber as well. Under acceleration, how much does the 'toe in' change

is -.30 total rear toe too much?

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