A Peek Inside The 2018 Mustang’s Gen 3 Coyote Engine

Pay attention to the Direct Injectior placement in the cut-away picture.


I have serious reservations that a Root-type supercharger, especially one with Dual Brick Intercoolers, will work on this new system. The aftermarket will have issues for sure and maybe they can design around the injectors? Doubtful...

Examine a typical roots type Eaton w/ intercoolers. You can instantly see how Duel Fuel could cause issues.



Ecoboost, here we come. Gonna need two turbo to make 850hp if that is the new target.

sigintel said:

DIPI is a FI dream. Huge advantage to dealing with detonation; cant detonate if fuel is not already in the cylinder. FI will make up for any GT350 head flow advantage so I would expect better than GT350 FI numbers.

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No, it's actually not. A lot of people who push high numbers and high boost use lower compression pistons. Higher compression means less PSI. DI/PI just makes it harder to tune right.

Better hope those DI seals don't cause issues either.

sigintel said:

Something is wrong with the 460 rating.
(5.0/5.2) x 526hp = 505hp

Add in PDI combustion advantages (timing, fuel delivery, etc.), and subtract GT350 head advantages (valves, flow etc)... How the hell is this rated 460?
Maybe 460 to the wheels

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There's are so many variables I don't even know where to begin. But Ford tuned the motor to make what they wanted to make. They could have made 450hp or 470hp, anywhere in between or even more or even less. The hard components are what they are, but they can tune it anyway they want and make as much or as little power as they want, within reason of course. These new motors have control over so many things like ignition timing, throttle, cam timing, etc that they can make the output vary quite a bit. Its not as exxagerated as a forced induction motor but it's still how it works.

Zelek said:

No, it's actually not. A lot of people who push high numbers and high boost use lower compression pistons. Higher compression means less PSI. DI/PI just makes it harder to tune right.

Better hope those DI seals don't cause issues either.

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Boost is not power, it is a measurement of flow resistance. Power is throughput. Pushing higher boost can also move the compressor (sc, turbo, doesn’t matter) out of efficiency range and actually cost power because the heated air looses too much density.
A higher compression engine will make more tq down low and pre/during spool/boost ramp. Improve flow (throughput) at all rpm with the heads/cams/exhaust and you will make more power throughs the rev range at lower boost.
What you are saying is true to a certain extent, but it is changing because advances in mapping and tech like DI and now holds true more for high boost strip cars that don’t come on until the last 1/3 of rpm range and are still pushing nearly peak boost at redline. the also don't worry as much about heat soak as street/road course cars.
DI and fast high resolution ecu’s can instantly defeat knock as well as cool the intake charge in ways port injection can’t.
DI has had its issues, but the tech is fairly mature at this point. Ford has learned a tons with the EB motors I am sure.
I'm not sure why you think tuning will be more difficult. I'm pretty sure its a wideband closed loop system,

MY STI is 9:1 and I’m making about 465hp dynojet (410 mustang) on e85 and a 60lb min BW EFR 7163. I hit 20lbs at 3200 and 32 at 3600 and have to taper to 24 at 7k because my current injectors won’t keep up, so my peak numbers are suffering by the tq will spin all 4 NT05's in 1st-2nd. My friend is doing new heads for me. He developed and produces the head packages for the AMS Alpha GTR’s (which made more power, 200whp more then closest competition with LESS timing btw), so saying he understand port velocity and flow is an understatement. I’m considering bumping my compression because of the added flow and getting more power though the range and not overspending my turbo past 7k to try and keep pushing more then 22-24 psi. However, its not a light switch power drag car. Its all about power band.

In a heavy street/road course car like the 18 GT, I would take the same approach. I’m very excited about this car and think it will be an amazing platform for heavy mods in a few years.

sigintel said:

Something is wrong with the 460 rating.
(5.0/5.2) x 526hp = 505hp

Add in PDI combustion advantages (timing, fuel delivery, etc.), and subtract GT350 head advantages (valves, flow etc)... How the hell is this rated 460?
Maybe 460 to the wheels....

DIPI is a FI dream. Huge advantage to dealing with detonation; cant detonate if fuel is not already in the cylinder. FI will make up for any GT350 head flow advantage so I would expect better than GT350 FI numbers.


!Dual fuel?... as in E85? uhhh, 460 is rear wheel number for sure...

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That's not how SAE power ratings work.

Advertised power is never RWHP, and it's not underrated.

460 is the split difference of the most repeatable power rating at 7,500 RPM across a set of production line spec motors in full installed trim (accessories, intake and production exhaust). It can be within 1.5% of that and still be SAE certified, so anywhere between 453 and 466 HP on 93 Octane.

sigintel said:

Something is wrong with the 460 rating.
(5.0/5.2) x 526hp = 505hp

Add in PDI combustion advantages (timing, fuel delivery, etc.), and subtract GT350 head advantages (valves, flow etc)... How the hell is this rated 460?
Maybe 460 to the wheels....

Click to expand...

I'd imagine the majority, if not all, the power increase is due to the compression bump alone. An additional full point of compression is generally good for a 3-4% increase in power in a naturally aspirated engine. 435hp + 4% = 452hp.

Zelek said:

No, it's actually not. A lot of people who push high numbers and high boost use lower compression pistons. Higher compression means less PSI. DI/PI just makes it harder to tune right.
Better hope those DI seals don't cause issues either.

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Debateble-If you have tools to tune any new technology, then its great, if you dont then it sucks; but thats true of any technology.

Correct, they use lower compression because they cant Direct Inject and must avoid detonation during compression because PI requires ALL fuel in cylinder during compression.

DI/PI harder to tune if you dont have tools, with tools its a combustion engineers dream.

Regarding DI seals, ecoboost DI 4 bangers were running 9s almost a year ago. Low 10s at Nationals. They have DI mastered. You could say the ecoboost tuners have a jump start on those only tuning PI coyotes...

DI will get dogged like when EFI got dogged by guys used to tuning carbs.
Ford FI dev is all PDI.

1320' said:

That's not how SAE power ratings work.

Advertised power is never RWHP, and it's not underrated.

460 is the split difference of the most repeatable power rating at 7,500 RPM across a set of production line spec motors in full installed trim (accessories, intake and production exhaust). It can be within 1.5% of that and still be SAE certified, so anywhere between 453 and 466 HP on 93 Octane.

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Excellent, not disagreeing with SAE.
Just wondering if Ford is artificially limiting that rating by pulling timing, rating for 87 octane use, or just sandbagging. Wont know till first 2018s are dynoed and setup to run quarter. I *suspect* with 93, air filter and full timing these will be 500hp.

Don't forget about the mid-refresh where they "added" 8 hp.

Gen 1a = 412hp (2011-2012)
Gen 1b = 420hp (2013-2014)

Gen 2 = 435hp

Gen 3a = 460hp

Wonder if there will be a middle rating boost, like Gen 1 since 460hp is probably conservative. And they might need it to combat Camaro. Basically what happened last time I think. Camaro came out with a little more HP, so Mustang had to "add 8 more hp" just to make things more even for marketing.

This version of the Coyote will carry through the end of this generation..

The next time there will be a power bump will be for whatever trim the S650 has the 5.0 in.

sigintel said:

Debateble-If you have tools to tune any new technology, then its great, if you dont then it sucks; but thats true of any technology.

Correct, they use lower compression because they cant Direct Inject and must avoid detonation during compression because PI requires ALL fuel in cylinder during compression.

DI/PI harder to tune if you dont have tools, with tools its a combustion engineers dream.

Regarding DI seals, ecoboost DI 4 bangers were running 9s almost a year ago. Low 10s at Nationals. They have DI mastered. You could say the ecoboost tuners have a jump start on those only tuning PI coyotes...

DI will get dogged like when EFI got dogged by guys used to tuning carbs.
Ford FI dev is all PDI.

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EB engines are setup for boost and are running a 9.5:1 CR. The MY18 coyote is going to be running 12:1 CR. Just because they both have DI doesn't mean they both are boost friendly.

Another thing to keep in mind is, the current coyote engine isn't limited on HP because of detonation. There are many running around on 93 octane at 700+HP.

The new coyote...who knows? Will you have to upgrade the high pressure AND standard injectors? Will the pistons be as friendly with ring lands as the current coyote?

At this point, you really can't make any assumptions on how the new coyote will do with boost.

High compression, DIPI, e85 and boost is a great combination. It's how we get those little 2.0 FA20 engines to 450whp and just a short block make 850whp no problem. Most stay at the higher compression also. Just built a motor and going 11.5:1 and should easily make 850 on e85.. on pump gas not so much, my DD made 340whp on 91 and 452whp on e85.

millhouse said:

The new coyote...who knows? Will you have to upgrade the high pressure AND standard injectors? .

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You are right no one knows, but plenty of other engines are out there that use this tech, in my case we take the duty cycle of the direct injectors to about 85-90% then fill fueling needs with the port injectors. 260 intank pump and 750cc injectors will get you to 500whp on our cars, and 1000cc over 850whp. All on e85 of course. 850whp FRS is scary fast.

gixxersixxerman said:

You are right no one knows, but plenty of other engines are out there that use this tech, in my case we take the duty cycle of the direct injectors to about 85-90% then fill fueling needs with the port injectors. 260 intank pump and 750cc injectors will get you to 500whp on our cars, and 1000cc over 850whp. All on e85 of course. 850whp FRS is scary fast.

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Did they upgrade the oil pump gear? Are they still using hypereutectic pistons? How close are the ring lands?

Just because an engine is running DI doesn't not automatically mean it's capable of more boost safely than one that doesn't. There are plenty of DI corvettes out there that will confirm this.

Being Ford I am not surprised if they kept the old oil pump parts as they are not really failing anyway.
I's gonna be hypereutectic pistons for sure.