JLT Intake system highlights, video results.

65sohc · Dec 18, 2016

Both the factory intake and JLT use cone filters in an open box sealed to the hood, so dynoing with the hood up would not favor one over the other. I've run both and IAT while driving is virtually identical. Therefore, if there is a difference in power it would be attributable to decreased restriction, ie. increased airflow. And I apologize for my smartassedness.

chops44 · Dec 18, 2016

65sohc said:
Both the factory intake and JLT use cone filters in an open box sealed to the hood, so dynoing with the hood up would not favor one over the other. I've run both and IAT while driving is virtually identical. Therefore, if there is a difference in power it would be attributable to decreased restriction, ie. increased airflow. And I apologize for my smartassedness.

Thanks man, no deal. I enjoy a spirited debate from time to time and if we always agreed with each other, that would be boring lol.

cattivo · Dec 19, 2016

I'm having the JLT CAI with Livernois tune done tomorrow with before and after dynos. Should be able to post results tomorrow.

chops44 · Dec 19, 2016

Any other mods, what octane fuel and did they already send you a tune for JLT?

cattivo · Dec 19, 2016

chops44 said:
Any other mods, what octane fuel and did they already send you a tune for JLT?

No other mods. I did buy the JLT tune prior to finding out my tuner is more familiar with Livernois. I hadn't done anything with any of it, so they allowed me to ship the tuner back. For as wide open as AZ can be, we cannot seem to get 93 here, so it's gonna be tuned for 91.:(

chops44 · Dec 19, 2016

You are Tuning with the mycalibrator right? I thought livernois were the only ones who could manipulate their own tunes?

chops44 · Dec 21, 2016

How did the tune turn out?

cattivo · Dec 22, 2016

chops44 said:
How did the tune turn out?

We got a late start last night, all we were able to get was the first two baseline pulls. We left it on the dyno and didn't get a chance to get back to it today. Tomorrow we should hit it with the CAI and tune. Here's the sheet from yesterday and a couple of gratiuitous pics.

65sohc · Dec 22, 2016

cattivo said:
No other mods. I did buy the JLT tune prior to finding out my tuner is more familiar with Livernois. I hadn't done anything with any of it, so they allowed me to ship the tuner back. For as wide open as AZ can be, we cannot seem to get 93 here, so it's gonna be tuned for 91.:(

No e85 where you are?

JN66 · Dec 22, 2016

cattivo said:
We got a late start last night, all we were able to get was the first two baseline pulls. We left it on the dyno and didn't get a chance to get back to it today. Tomorrow we should hit it with the CAI and tune. Here's the sheet from yesterday and a couple of gratiuitous pics.

Looking forward to your results bro!

MCarsFan · Dec 23, 2016

I ran the most expensive intake ever made on my M5 (I'm not even going to say how much, but it's a lot of money) - I am embarrassed to admit it. Two large metal tubes, hand crafted, CNC cut, yada yada. And that car (M5) is a car that runs an extremely restricted setup from the factory not like this GT350. It also has dual intakes and sucks so much air, so in terms of "intake gains", that car will be much more sensitive to a true CAI than the GT350.

I can tell you after running that intake 1 year, I sold it. I did extensive analysis and have had numerous problems.

- People who make these intakes are not engineers. Neither they have the tools and training of factory engineers. MAF calibration is a major piece of work and takes weeks to fine tune. Today's cars are way sensitive and the best MAF calibration is the one that comes from the factory. Nobody has the resources and the time like the factory engineers do. FURTHERMORE, MAF tables have various parameters and dimensions. There is A/F ratio tuning and then there is MAF calibration. These calibrations varies in each RPM, each "mode" (normal/sport/wet/etc), and other various conditions (atmospheric pressure, etc). There is no way an intake company will tune a car this way as it would take months for them to come up with a proper tune and EVEN THEN they are not Ford engineers, they will never have the experience Ford does thus it's highly likely their tune will have other short comings. What they will do is either make the car run too rich or too lean. They can only fine tune for drag strip/race track/daily driving. Think about it, the rpm band has a lot to do with how much air the car is pulling. You need to adjust every single permutation and combination of these input parameters.

- When you put a CAI intake on any car, in the first few miles, car will feel jumpy, throttle more responsive, etc. That's due to the change in diameter of the intake piping, location of MAF sensor, etc. Whatever the change is, ECU/DME will see more air and that gives the driver that feeling. HOWEVER, this effect is short lived, computer eventually adjusts. I strongly URGE anyone to get a basic code reader and log LTFTs before and after intake installation. You will see at least 10-15% gain/loss which is very problematic. What I have noticed in my M5 was that the car was running up to 15% richer at low RPMs and then that much lean at high RPMs whereas the in stock tune car was running 0% all around - perfect/smooth LTFT graph. This was because the MAF sensors were reporting BS numbers at such low RPMs (turbulent air). I have done extensive MAF readout and logging and have seen the intake literally brain fucking the car. MAF readings were all over the place. They were not smooth at all.

- Lastly, a car's engine is a MASSIVE air pump. How much air goes in depends on the A/F ratio and the injectors and cylinders etc. Bottom line is, unless you do a true tune (as I explained in first part), there is no way that more air is going to magically make more power. The ECU will adjust itself and create a rich/lean condition. That's how closed loop fuel trim systems work (STFT and LTFT).

Just the fact that your injectors are working over time to adjust for the abrupt readings from the MAF is a good enough reason to not to run any intake. These are extremely sensitive pieces and just a few plastic tubes can ruin the car. I have had friends whose injectors failed because they couldnt keep up and hydralocked the engine by dumping too much fuel, all because of intake.

Sorry, after spending so much time with intakes I feel like there is a lot of misinformation/lack of education in public, I'd hate for people to get hurt. I wouldn't put any intakes on any car unless there is a PROPER tune that comes with it and proper tune isnt a simple A/F ratio adjustment, you need to tune the entire setup from injector pulses to MAF and MAP values, you pretty much have to rewrite the entire DME data implementation. I dont know if this tune here does that, if so, then I'll retract my post.

firestarter2 · Dec 23, 2016

MCarsFan said:
I ran the most expensive intake ever made on my M5 (I'm not even going to say how much, but it's a lot of money) - I am embarrassed to admit it. Two large metal tubes, hand crafted, CNC cut, yada yada. And that car (M5) is a car that runs an extremely restricted setup from the factory not like this GT350. It also has dual intakes and sucks so much air, so in terms of "intake gains", that car will be much more sensitive to a true CAI than the GT350.

I can tell you after running that intake 1 year, I sold it. I did extensive analysis and have had numerous problems.

- People who make these intakes are not engineers. Neither they have the tools and training of factory engineers. MAF calibration is a major piece of work and takes weeks to fine tune. Today's cars are way sensitive and the best MAF calibration is the one that comes from the factory. Nobody has the resources and the time like the factory engineers do. FURTHERMORE, MAF tables have various parameters and dimensions. There is A/F ratio tuning and then there is MAF calibration. These calibrations varies in each RPM, each "mode" (normal/sport/wet/etc), and other various conditions (atmospheric pressure, etc). There is no way an intake company will tune a car this way as it would take months for them to come up with a proper tune and EVEN THEN they are not Ford engineers, they will never have the experience Ford does thus it's highly likely their tune will have other short comings. What they will do is either make the car run too rich or too lean. They can only fine tune for drag strip/race track/daily driving. Think about it, the rpm band has a lot to do with how much air the car is pulling. You need to adjust every single permutation and combination of these input parameters.

- When you put a CAI intake on any car, in the first few miles, car will feel jumpy, throttle more responsive, etc. That's due to the change in diameter of the intake piping, location of MAF sensor, etc. Whatever the change is, ECU/DME will see more air and that gives the driver that feeling. HOWEVER, this effect is short lived, computer eventually adjusts. I strongly URGE anyone to get a basic code reader and log LTFTs before and after intake installation. You will see at least 10-15% gain/loss which is very problematic. What I have noticed in my M5 was that the car was running up to 15% richer at low RPMs and then that much lean at high RPMs whereas the in stock tune car was running 0% all around - perfect/smooth LTFT graph. This was because the MAF sensors were reporting BS numbers at such low RPMs (turbulent air). I have done extensive MAF readout and logging and have seen the intake literally brain fucking the car. MAF readings were all over the place. They were not smooth at all.

- Lastly, a car's engine is a MASSIVE air pump. How much air goes in depends on the A/F ratio and the injectors and cylinders etc. Bottom line is, unless you do a true tune (as I explained in first part), there is no way that more air is going to magically make more power. The ECU will adjust itself and create a rich/lean condition. That's how closed loop fuel trim systems work (STFT and LTFT).

Just the fact that your injectors are working over time to adjust for the abrupt readings from the MAF is a good enough reason to not to run any intake. These are extremely sensitive pieces and just a few plastic tubes can ruin the car. I have had friends whose injectors failed because they couldnt keep up and hydralocked the engine by dumping too much fuel, all because of intake.

Sorry, after spending so much time with intakes I feel like there is a lot of misinformation/lack of education in public, I'd hate for people to get hurt. I wouldn't put any intakes on any car unless there is a PROPER tune that comes with it and proper tune isnt a simple A/F ratio adjustment, you need to tune the entire setup from injector pulses to MAF and MAP values, you pretty much have to rewrite the entire DME data implementation. I dont know if this tune here does that, if so, then I'll retract my post.

This intake said tune required I think.

I agree with most of what you said. Your understanding of tuning is a bit clumsy though.

If you run too high a duty cycle on injectors they can fail but with a basic intake on the gt350 that shouldnt be an issue.

Generally intakes are a waist for money as you said the ecu adapts to the intake and you end up where you started after a few days.

MCarsFan · Dec 23, 2016

firestarter2 said:
This intake said tune required I think.

I agree with most of what you said. Your understanding of tuning is a bit clumsy though.

If you run too high a duty cycle on injectors they can fail but with a basic intake on the gt350 that shouldnt be an issue.

Generally intakes are a waist for money as you said the ecu adapts to the intake and you end up where you started after a few days.

It did, but what kind of tune? Anything from a basic A/F modification is considered a "tune".

During my "quest" to understand my after market intake on my M5, I even managed to get in touch with a few engineers from Germany who work at BMW's M team. After discussing this with them, I can tell you that there is no way, absolutely no way that any aftermarket shop will come even close to the perfectness of a factory tune. It's not all about making X whp, it's about doing it right, doing it smoothly and doing it reliably. A car making 10 whp on top end in a dyno really means nothing. These people spend hours everyday for days and weeks at wind tunnels and nurburgring using pretty sophisticated technology (i.e. having specialized MAF sensors that can debug a hell a lot of data, so on so forth). Most of these systems and tools are completely internal and is not something you can purchase.

firestarter2 · Dec 23, 2016

MCarsFan said:
It did, but what kind of tune? Anything from a basic A/F modification is considered a "tune".

During my "quest" to understand my after market intake on my M5, I even managed to get in touch with a few engineers from Germany who work at BMW's M team. After discussing this with them, I can tell you that there is no way, absolutely no way that any aftermarket shop will come even close to the perfectness of a factory tune. It's not all about making X whp, it's about doing it right, doing it smoothly and doing it reliably. A car making 10 whp on top end in a dyno really means nothing. These people spend hours everyday for days and weeks at wind tunnels and nurburgring using pretty sophisticated technology (i.e. having specialized MAF sensors that can debug a hell a lot of data, so on so forth). Most of these systems and tools are completely internal and is not something you can purchase.

I think you are making things overly complex. As far as I can tell they have all the tools to modify the factory tune on this car.

They dont have to create a tune from scratch they are tweaking the factory one

MCarsFan · Dec 23, 2016

firestarter2 said:
I think you are making things overly complex. As far as I can tell they have all the tools to modify the factory tune on this car.

I'm not.

First of all, I dont know what kind of software Ford uses and how their stock tune is. My experience is limited to my M5 which uses dual Bosch DMEs, it's pretty high end stuff. But I'm guessing GT350 is no slouch and it must be similarly equipped/coded.

M5 has various tables, tables are like 2D matrixes that allow the computer to lookup values given X/Y axis values, such as atmospheric pressure vs temperature MAF lookup or humidity etc. My car has pretty advanced lookup tables that define injector pulses for a given MAF and MAP reading (I'm guessing mustang must have a MAP sensor as well) and same goes for Lambda sensors (there are four oxygen sensors). Think of the DME as a giant table lookup software that constantly does nested lookups (one lookup leading to the next, so on).

Now the problem isn't the ability to modify those tables, that anyone can do. The problem is coming up with the values that goes in those tables. Some of these tables require wind tunnels as well as the car having to be tested at different parts of the world. BMW always tests their car in places like Arizona, las vegas, sweeden, finland, africa, etc.

A tuner will never be able to match a factory engineer's ability to fine tune this software. They will maybe get 60% close which will make 90% of the population happy because very little people know this stuff as much as I do. But still, it doesnt mean what they are doing is right or reliable. No one knows the long term impacts of such modifications (i.e. 50-60k miles).

JLT Intake system highlights, video results.

65sohc

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chops44

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cattivo

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chops44

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cattivo

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chops44

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chops44

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cattivo

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65sohc

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JN66

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MCarsFan

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firestarter2

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MCarsFan

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firestarter2

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MCarsFan

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