Paxton vs Whipple for hot climate?

Roh92cp · Feb 20, 2017

mustang1 said:
How many WOT pulls might you get in 100F before IAT2 is a problem? KB has an article estimating 10 degrees per PSI. So if it is 100F, and 8 psi, or 80 degrees, how many WOT pulls before the supercharger is too hot? I am assuming that once intercooler water is 100+80(F), there won't be much cooling.

Centri seems like it would have an advantage in hot weather, if for no other reason that it is creating less boost in the lower RPM.

I realize this thread was started becuase it asked what better in in hot weather, but seriously I'm trying trying to say Whipple is better than, but rather to discuss how heat affects these different units and the IAT's.

There're's many things at play when considering how heat affects these units and how heat exchangers also effect the overal performance. The computer strategy to control timing based on load rpm and IAT also greatly comes into play. I don't claim to be an expert on this but rather a long study and experience in it.

As far as Kenne bell's data of 10 degree rise for every pound of Boost, let's assume this applies to Whipple's compressor effiency as well or now. So if this data is correct, Kenne bell was referring to temp rise per lb of boost before intercooling for sure because I've read the Tech article. So we can't just say if it's 100 ambient and you add 8 psi with 10 degree rise per psi 80 degrees for a total of 180 that this is what the motor is seeing. All of these system have a heat exchanger and intercooler that depending on the manufacturers build size and flow rate will efficiently scrub heat from the supposed 180 degrees. And let's be honest here all compressed air creates heat including centi's. There are so many things that come into play when considering heat in these system. Supercharger efficiency, PD/twin screw, centi blow through and PD draw through, heat exchangers and intercooler style, MAF/IAT placement, airflow, induction design, true cold air inlets, accurate IAT data, and more.

SolarFlare said:
His first pull put him at 115* already. Is the whipple tune pulling back at that point already like NA cars?

The Whipple calibration uses a 3D spark vs IAT map that is always changing.

Roh92cp · Feb 20, 2017

mustang1 said:
How many WOT pulls might you get in 100F before IAT2 is a problem? KB has an article estimating 10 degrees per PSI. So if it is 100F, and 8 psi, or 80 degrees, how many WOT pulls before the supercharger is too hot? I am assuming that once intercooler water is 100+80(F), there won't be much cooling.

Centri seems like it would have an advantage in hot weather, if for no other reason that it is creating less boost in the lower RPM.

Here is a good example of how complex calculating the effects of heat on a forced induction system is. This is from another thread from Dept of Boost who have done countless hours of R&D for their products.

Department Of Boost said:
I think there is a lot of confusion over IAT1/IAT2 data with the S550's. This is not helped by the fact that different tuners, different kits, etc use different methods of collecting that data. Then add in that the S550 PCM's don't read IAT's very accurately for some reason. Then add in that some people run e85, which does suck heat out of the manifold and things get real confusing. And then factor in differences in driving situations and you're lost.

We've been running stand alone IAT sensors and doing IAT, heat exchanger, pump and intercooler testing for years now. It's probably fair to say more than everyone else combined.

The following numbers are going to depend on a ton of factors such as what kit is being run, what pump is being run, what heat exchanger is being run, how much the car is moving opposed to sitting (stop lights and so on), how fast the car is moving, how the person drives, etc. So that is why there is a pretty wide gap between high and low. With all of those variables this really is junk data too. But at least it's junk data based on a thousands of hours of testing on just about every combination imaginable.

-While doing normal surface street driving you will see IAT2's between 35 and 55deg over ambient. You may get spikes sitting at lights as high as 75deg over ambient.

-While cruising down the freeway at 75mph on the cruise control you will see IAT2's between 25 and 45deg over ambient.

-At the end of a 10-12sec WOT run you will see IAT2's between 45 and 100deg over ambient. Keep in mind there is a HUGE difference between a 4-6sec run and a 10-12sec run. They can't be compared even remotely. The IAT rise is not linear, it has a big ramp to it.

If you're seeing numbers that don't fall in this scale there is a good chance your data is corrupt or you're running e85. Or you're getting that data from someone else that is lying.

Something to note is that the IAT's do not track vs ambient in a linear way. It's incredibly complex to explain why, so I won't. Between about 65 and 85deg ambient the IAT's will scale pretty evenly. By that I mean you will for the most part see your standard XXdeg over ambient. Below 65 deg the difference between ambient and IAT gets bigger. You will never (well, aside from our kits) see for example an IAT 25deg over ambient at an ambient temp of 30deg. On the flip side your IAT over ambient at 100deg will actually be slightly smaller.

Now to plug our stuff.

We have been attacking this IAT thing for years. Frankly "normal" isn't nearly good enough and we wanted to solve it. And we have it pretty much licked. Do we want more? Absolutely, IAT's will never 100% bulletproof (never pulls timing/hurts performance). But we have made it as good as it will get until some sort of new technology is invented.

Here is what you can expect from our stuff.

-While doing normal surface street driving you will see IAT2's between 8 and 12deg over ambient. You may get spikes sitting at lights as high as 18deg over ambient.

-While cruising down the freeway at 75mph on the cruise control you will see IAT2's between 6 and 10deg over ambient.

-At the end of a 10-12sec WOT run you will see IAT2's between 25 and 30deg over ambient.

sigintel said:
The hotter the air coming in the hotter the air coming out of the IC after the blower. Soooo if you can be pulling 90F air instead of 160F air into the blower and IC core can cool the result down further.
All things kept the same, increasing IAT1 will increase IAT2.

Whipple SC said:
Correct, but it's not a 1:1 ratio by any means as iat1 goes up, the ic effectiveness also does.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Department Of Boost said:
I absolutely agree that keeping IAT1's down is important. It means there is less to cool down with the limited ability to cool. You can take every single bite out of the cooling apple and it will still never be "bulletproof". So I'm a huge proponent of taking any and every bite possible. Identifying those bites and taking them all is how we ended up making stuff that is so much more advanced than everything else out there.

Here is an interesting piece of data:

On my 2007, which has been sold, on really hot days when mired on surface streets I would see IAT2's that were lower than the IAT1s. Does this mean I didn't want lower IAT1's? Absolutely not, I'll take everything I can get. But that sure does show how well an intercooler system can work.

What he said^^^^^

SolarFlare · Feb 20, 2017

Looks like all those numbers are considerably higher than what you see in a centri.

Roh92cp · Feb 20, 2017

SolarFlare said:
Looks like all those numbers are considerably higher than what you see in a centri.

Again you can believe what you want, but the reality is centi system that don't have their own dedicated IAT sensor and that's use the stock MAF/IAT sensor for reporting their IAT's are getting less than reliable data. These MAF sensor were not designed or calibrated with the PCM Strategy to be fast acting in displaying data. Nor were they designed and calibrated to be on the hot boosted side of a Supercharger. Try putting in a dedicated quality IAT sensor and system that can be datalogged and you will see real data. Whatching a gauge is not accurate, and furthermore Ford dash gauges and the data displayed has been known to be less than stellar. Just watch you wide band data and you will see inaccuracies and lag.

Agent_S550 · Feb 20, 2017

Roh92cp said:
Again you can believe what you want, but the reality is centi system that don't have their own dedicated IAT sensor and that's use the stock MAF/IAT sensor for reporting their IAT's are getting less than reliable data. These MAF sensor were not designed or calibrated with the PCM Strategy to be fast acting in displaying data. Nor were they designed and calibrated to be on the hot boosted side of a Supercharger. Try putting in a dedicated quality IAT sensor and system that can be datalogged and you will see real data. Whatching a gauge is not accurate, and furthermore Ford dash gauges and the data displayed has been known to be less than stellar. Just watch you wide band data and you will see inaccuracies and lag.

I have to concur. It's like comparing your IAT2's to ambient temp on the dash. "Well it says its 80 degrees outside, so theoretically I should be like you know.. 90 degrees on my IAT's".

If you don't have a sensor plumbed in to post-charged manifold, your values will be greatly off.

SolarFlare · Feb 20, 2017

I stick to my claim. Centris run cooler.

NavyChief122 · Feb 20, 2017

I don't have either set up but I have a MAGGY tvs. I love it. The way it is set up with a post intercooler sensor. I see iat 5-10 over Ambient temperature when cruising and when I go WOT they drop so fast to ambient. Love it. If I sit in traffic it will jump up to about 30-50 over ambient. But once I get moving it drops fast for me.

HWill · Feb 20, 2017

Brostang said:
The 2010 kit was also sucking in air from right over the headers in the back of the engine bay. It had the worst filter placement of any FI kit for the S197. That model year has zero basis for comparing S550 kits. Even the 11-14s have completely different plumbing. Do a side by side comparison. If they heatsoaked so bad, why do so many S550 owners run procharger?

I have no experience with either, but using a 2010 design as an example is invalid. Sorry

I agree the filter placement for the 2010 sucked, but Prochargers claim it is the coolest SC available makes it valid. My point was to not rely on manufacturers claims.

And I'm sure the amount of Whipple, Roush, VMP and KB kits out number the Procharger kits but that means absolutely nothing.

The op should go to a meet and a few tuners.

mustang1 · Feb 20, 2017

How hot does the water get in the air-water intercooler during normal (< 4000 rpm) driving? If its 100F, ideally the water would be 100F. Then if you WOT, S/C heats the air to 180F, which gets intercooled down to 130-140F (made-up numbers). If the water temp climbs to 180F, does this mean that the fun is over until it cools back down to 100-120? How fast does it cool at highway speed, when its 100F ?

Paxton vs Whipple for hot climate?

Roh92cp

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Roh92cp

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SolarFlare

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Roh92cp

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Agent_S550

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SolarFlare

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NavyChief122

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HWill

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mustang1

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