Oh No- GT350 crash at Cars and Coffee

Sport mode doesn't shut it all off.

Zitrosounds said:

"I suppose I should end with a cautionary tale. . ."

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I've read that article.

By extension, does that mean I should be afraid to drive my '08, as stability control was not offered for it? Or the '01 Maxima (ditto)? That Jack would refuse to sit right seat in my '08?

If the answers to any of those questions is 'no', why should I be afraid to turn off the nannies in later cars that do have them? I'm not going to drive them any differently on the street, and I am certainly going to sneak up on their capabilities on the track just like I'm doing with the '08.


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

I've read that article.

By extension, does that mean I should be afraid to drive my '08, as stability control was not offered for it? Or the '01 Maxima (ditto)? That Jack would refuse to sit right seat in my '08?

If the answers to any of those questions is 'no', why should I be afraid to turn off the nannies in later cars that do have them? I'm not going to drive them any differently on the street, and I am certainly going to sneak up on their capabilities on the track just like I'm doing with the '08.


Norm

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One can tune the suspension more agressively if you have stability control. For example my 04 sti with no stability control used no front camber to make it safe on the street. Stability control has allowed car makers to give cars proper natural handling, then use electronics to make it safe for uncertain conditions on public roads.

honeybadger said:

So legit curiosity - how come you turn off TCM for street driving?

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First of all I grew up driving high performance cars back in the 1960's and we certainly did not have TCM on our cars at that time therefore it is just natural for me to drive a new car without TC and feel very comfortable driving these new HP cars no differently than I did back in the day.

Secondly, I live in a rural part of the South therefore we have a lot of back roads whereby I am able to put my cars through their paces but always try to pick my spots carefully but trust me there are a lot of great spots to wind these cars out.

Certainly TC is great to have but not a necessity for me but can understand why others never turn them off.

:cheers:

PP0001 said:

First of all I grew up driving high performance cars back in the 1960's and we certainly did not have TCM on our cars at that time therefore it is just natural for me to drive a new car without TC and feel very comfortable driving these new HP cars no differently than I did back in the day.

Secondly, I live in a rural part of the South therefore we have a lot of back roads whereby I am able to put my cars through their paces but always try to pick my spots carefully but trust me there are a lot of great spots to wind these cars out.

Certainly TC is great to have but not a necessity for me but can understand why others never turn them off.

:cheers:

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TC and stability control are not the same.

xt6wagon said:

One can tune the suspension more agressively if you have stability control. For example my 04 sti with no stability control used no front camber to make it safe on the street. Stability control has allowed car makers to give cars proper natural handling, then use electronics to make it safe for uncertain conditions on public roads.

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I have to look it up but I believe Randy Pobst is on record as leaving SC on in some cars becuase he was actually faster. On track I use Track mode. I have yet to feel intrusion. Maybe its my style and I am just naturally smooth with my control. But! If I mess up I at least have a safety net. Every body makes mistakes.

I assum all or most states are the same, that if you buy or drive a motorcycle that you are required to pass a competency driving course to obtain a motorcycle endorsement on your license. I always wonder why states don't require a competency course for cars over a certain horse power to do the same? Some of these crashes are just bone headed drivers.

Zitrosounds said:

I have yet to feel intrusion. Maybe its my style and I am just naturally smooth with my control. But! If I mess up I at least have a safety net. Every body makes mistakes.

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I have. I've noticed intervention at turn 3 and turn 6 in Daytona (infield track). Trying to max perform the exit out of 3 and trying to lay on the throttle as early as possible kicked in the nannies a few times. The most memorable where augmentation came in handy was out of turn 6, where the infield meets the nascar track. There, a large painted line exists. Under damp conditions, you are on the throttle to minimize your exit time out of the turn and then you hit that wide painted line. Augmentation taught a lesson that was free.

It is my humble opinion that augmentation has its place. However the car is not uncontrollable without it. Case in point..... The banks of Daytona kept throwing my car out of augmentation by turning off all the nannies. It is a known anomaly, but when the computer kicks it off, it is all off. Most of us kept driving. Nobody had any issues because of it.



All that is speaking in reference to the track. The line from airplane "they bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting themselves into....." People on the track are wearing helmets and know that they are putting themselves at some calculated degree of risk. People on the street that are driving around us do not. I do not turn augmentation off on public streets because **it happens. There isn't much difference on the street between sport or track mode for that matter. IMHO, it is a fool who turns it all off when driving with the unaware or unknowing public. Turn it all off on a public street, crash your car, hurt or kill someone, and you have some 'splainin to do.

IMHO a lot of these you tube stars have minimal or no experience in such a high performance car. I grew up on wide ovals and 4 speed AMX's with a short 90" wheel base. I get what unstable is. These Mustangs are VERY controllable. The big problems come from inexperience and/or plain stupidity. There is no excuse for driving like an idiot if you have streets lined with people, cameras and cops like a cars and coffee. Don't be that idiot.

I have taken the controls off completely and yes the car is a damn monster, a fire breathing beast. Leave it in advanced mode and it is still a monster but it is one that while still boiling the hides, gives a clear safety advantage in controllability.

That is my experience at least with my 2013 GT500.....

Zitrosounds said:

TC and stability control are not the same.

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I had no idea.

Thanks for pointing that out to me!

;)

PP0001 said:

I had no idea.

Thanks for pointing that out to me!

;)

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Just making sure we are all on the same page. Lots of new members and many newbies to performance cars. Not everyone knows as much as you do.

Tomster said:

I have. I've noticed intervention at turn 3 and turn 6 in Daytona (infield track). Trying to max perform the exit out of 3 and trying to lay on the throttle as early as possible kicked in the nannies a few times. The most memorable where augmentation came in handy was out of turn 6, where the infield meets the nascar track. There, a large painted line exists. Under damp conditions, you are on the throttle to minimize your exit time out of the turn and then you hit that wide painted line. Augmentation taught a lesson that was free.

It is my humble opinion that augmentation has its place. However the car is not uncontrollable without it. Case in point..... The banks of Daytona kept throwing my car out of augmentation by turning off all the nannies. It is a known anomaly, but when the computer kicks it off, it is all off. Most of us kept driving. Nobody had any issues because of it.All that is speaking in reference to the track. The line from airplane "they bought their ticket, they knew what they were getting themselves into....." People on the track are wearing helmets and know that they are putting themselves at some calculated degree of risk. People on the street that are driving around us do not. I do not turn augmentation off on public streets because **it happens. There isn't much difference on the street between sport or track mode for that matter. IMHO, it is a fool who turns it all off when driving with the unaware or unknowing public. Turn it all off on a public street, crash your car, hurt or kill someone, and you have some 'splainin to do.

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There are many variables. Where you on stock tires and wheels? If not that makes a huge difference in how the programmed limits of the computer assist with stability. A buddy with a C5 Z06 that was trying to kill him because he changed the wheel and tire to other than stock. He quickly figured out that the computer had no clue the specs of the wheels and tires have been changed and was making correction based on the programmed OEM wheel/tire diameter.

All my 350 track experience is at Barber MSP. I am running in the low in the low 1:40's and improving every session. I a on stock wheels and tires. For reference, Randy P. ran a 1:36 with the a Z/28. I have yet to feel or see flash SC warning. I have however Ihave felt it SC kick in in previous cars also in stock form and it was rather intrusive. I get it! SC as Tomster said has its place. However for most it is trully a life and car saver.

Zitrosounds said:

Just making sure we are all on the same page. Lots of new members and many newbies to performance cars. Not everyone knows as much as you do.

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Understood and thanks!

xt6wagon said:

One can tune the suspension more agressively if you have stability control. For example my 04 sti with no stability control used no front camber to make it safe on the street. Stability control has allowed car makers to give cars proper natural handling, then use electronics to make it safe for uncertain conditions on public roads.

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To me (as a now-retired engineer), it's a poor philosophy to design a product that's inherently too close to unacceptable behavior under predictable conditions of use and then electronically crutch that back to acceptability. What happens when the electronic safety net goes AWOL for any reason? Something as simple as a single dead/dying wheel sensor will bring it all down, never mind the driver turns it off for any reason.

We've already seen electronic fixes for mechanical shortcomings, perhaps most notably in the Lexus GX460, where trailing throttle oversteer was "corrected" by reflashing the stability control software when the real problem was strictly mechanical somewhere in the chassis & suspension tuning. Cheaper for Lexus to reflash than to have done the job right in the beginning.

Most drivers don't know what understeer is or how to detect it, so it's too much of a stretch to assume they're going to be impressed by driving characteristics that remain closer to linear out to well beyond how hard they'll ever intentionally drive their vehicles. For the "unintentional" portion, it's probably safe to assume they're going to be too busy with other thoughts to notice how the car "feels" at such moments, whether or not stability control intervenes.


Norm