BASE GT BRAKES SUCK

Can't let this go, can you?

But when somebody's initial post in a thread like this one reads like it was composed by somebody with zero track or other serious high performance driving experience, and lacks proofreading on top of that, being treated like a 20-something newbie should probably be expected.

Believe it or not, in spite of your resistance I'm still trying to help, and I'm pretty sure that the advices are worth far more than what you're paying for them.


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

Can't let this go, can you?

But when somebody's initial post in a thread like this one reads like it was composed by somebody with zero track or other serious high performance driving experience, and lacks proofreading on top of that, being treated like a 20-something newbie should probably be expected.

Believe it or not, in spite of your resistance I'm still trying to help, and I'm pretty sure that the advices are worth far more than what you're paying for them.


Norm

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Let me edit your post. You meant "expected by me". Your exacting standards are hilarious. Get over yourself. Bye bye.

Well then. So.... all I was saying is that... well... I have a base gt.... I track my car about 12 times a year... and... I noticed brake fade in my second session but I was driving the car fairly hard.... I then drove my friends PP car.... and drove it the exact same way... and did not notice fade. He has a stock car my car is also stock. Thats all Im saying... Im sure the factory 4 pistons can be good with proper fluid and rotors and pads but considering I had no issues with the 6 piston set up for my personal driving style and skill level that I factually was able to experience first hand and the fact the 6 piston kit is literally only 1k new for rotors, calipers, pads and hardware... I'm going with the 6 piston for performance and well also looks.... so.... yeah... my opinion is all.

I'm wondering if they can be salvaged with better pads and rotors. I have been giving careful thought to the GT350 brakes. Pricey but not as bad as other kits.

The Base Brake Pad Compound is not really designed for track use so the PP pads are going to 'feel' better. Experiencing fade is subjective to the experience, compound fade is far less dangerous than fluid failure. 8K miles does not mean the brake fluid is any good. I have sold the Brembo kits to several track Customers but one of those Customers Won his Championship in His Country and another Customer Wheel to Wheel Races. For the others I could not tell you if it was needed or for style points. For a casual track day person, fresh fluid, brake cooling and a high temperature range track compound will net excellent results, all consumables are less, wheel choices are wide open and not limited. Norm, as usual has genuine valid points so I don't know what happened in this thread. Maybe don't ask for advice if you are already committed in your decision. The 4 piston set up is a popular swap for previous generation Mustangs. There is nothing wrong with these braking systems.

Thanks for your input Norm & Optimum Performance. I was considering a pricey brake upgrade kit, but it sounds like better pads will suffice

What Norm and Tommy said.

My before/after track day story.
Same track, same day of the year, same car/4-pot-brakes/stock-pads/wheels&tires. Track day was six 20-minute sessions, 40 minutes in between. The real difference was last year the morning sessions were in steady drizzle rain, midday sessions was a drying session, afternoon sessions were drying/fully-dry track. This year temp was 75F and sunshine all day.

Obviously there was more (natural ambient) cooling last year. I had no brake issues at all, and I was braking really late and hard for a novice driver.

This year I had no brake issues until the end of the last session. I had pad fade going into turn 1 at the end of the main straight, and I did well to keep two inside wheels on the track by the time I reached turn 2.

My rotors looked scored, but it was pad material that had melted onto them. We could smell the brakes before the start of the last session, so even 40 mintues of down time was not enough for them to cool off. 6 weeks of DD later, and it has mostly cleaned itself off. I plan to add the JLT cooling ducts before next track day.

It's the pads, guys. Street pads may survive a few short sessions, but not a full track day.

GTP said:

What Norm and Tommy said.

My before/after track day story.
Same track, same day of the year, same car/4-pot-brakes/stock-pads/wheels&tires. Track day was six 20-minute sessions, 40 minutes in between. The real difference was last year the morning sessions were in steady drizzle rain, midday sessions was a drying session, afternoon sessions were drying/fully-dry track. This year temp was 75F and sunshine all day.

Obviously there was more (natural ambient) cooling last year. I had no brake issues at all, and I was braking really late and hard for a novice driver.

This year I had no brake issues until the end of the last session. I had pad fade going into turn 1 at the end of the main straight, and I did well to keep two inside wheels on the track by the time I reached turn 2.

My rotors looked scored, but it was pad material that had melted onto them. We could smell the brakes before the start of the last session, so even 40 mintues of down time was not enough for them to cool off. 6 weeks of DD later, and it has mostly cleaned itself off. I plan to add the JLT cooling ducts before next track day.

It's the pads, guys. Street pads may survive a few short sessions, but not a full track day.

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Do you plan on switching to another compound and track again? This is really interesting to see someone else figuring it out with the base brakes. Mythbusting in progress...???

Performance nut said:

Do you plan on switching to another compound and track again? This is really interesting to see someone else figuring it out with the base brakes. Mythbusting in progress...???

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The thing about these forums is that we are a bunch of amateurs talking as though we have years of experience as design/test engineers, or hundreds of hours of track driving experience, or what have you. But we are mostly amateurs and enthusiasts. Not criticizing, just observing.

The very topic can be found in other threads.

Is the PP brembo setup more heavy duty, and track ready? Yes, but it is mainly because of the pads, and not the #piston or rotor diameter. The extra pistons simply help to provide even pressure against a taller brake pad. The larger pad helps keep the temps down.
Is it because of the calipers? Not as much as the pads, which survive longer at higher pressures and temperatures.

I experienced brake pad fade at the end of the session at the end of the track day. I hope to never experience pedal fade!
In my opinion, I can get to where I need to be with 1) proper track pads, 2) periodic fluid replacement, and 3) adding brake duct cooling. All 3 things also apply to the brembo setup.

Let's not forget that quicker braking comes from higher temperatures, because we are converting kinetic (speed) energy to heat energy. Formula 1 brakes operating at such intentionally-high temps that they need carbon discs to survive the heat. (This is like using motor brushes as rotors.)
We can't get (or afford) carbon rotors, but we can get (and afford) proper track pads.

Performance nut said:

Do you plan on switching to another compound and track again? This is really interesting to see someone else figuring it out with the base brakes. Mythbusting in progress...???

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We sell mostly R12 and R16 compounds for the base brakes to Track Customers. If you run them with cooling and fluid you will have a very good track package. Most run the GS1's for daily driving and swap to the track pads for the events.

Optimum Performance said:

We sell mostly R12 and R16 compounds for the base brakes to Track Customers. If you run them with cooling and fluid you will have a very good track package. Most run the GS1's for daily driving and swap to the track pads for the events.

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[MENTION=13927]Performance nut[/MENTION] - Yes, that is exactly my plan - switching pads between street and track use, because track pads are also not appropriate for the street.

I want to take this opportunity to compliment Tommy at Optimum Performance. He answered my email questions, even during the hurricane aftermath, and quickly shipped me the Motive brake pressure bleeder, which comes with the s550 adapter. Plus some temp range stickers.

Now this is more like it! And this is really good to hear. I don't enjoy the idea of swapping pads; however, I won't be living at the track so it shouldn't be that bad. Last pads and rotor I swapped was on an older Corvette. Hope our brakes are a bit easier.

Thanks guys. GTP, I hope you post results post ducting and track pads. I'm positive it will make a difference, interested how much of a difference.

Performance nut said:

Now this is more like it! And this is really good to hear. I don't enjoy the idea of swapping pads; however, I won't be living at the track so it shouldn't be that bad. Last pads and rotor I swapped was on an older Corvette. Hope our brakes are a bit easier.

Thanks guys. GTP, I hope you post results post ducting and track pads. I'm positive it will make a difference, interested how much of a difference.

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Yes, the front pads remove and install easily. I heard that the rear pads are harder, maybe even a special tool required?

BTW, I think that the OP also mis-titled his post, bc he mentions 4-pot brakes in a thread titled "base" brakes, which are not 4-pot. Those probably would suck at the track, although I ran alongside a 2014 GT with slider-pins front brakes. I don't know what pads he ran, but he didn't have any problems from what I saw.

GTP said:

The thing about these forums is that we are a bunch of amateurs talking as though we have years of experience as design/test engineers, or hundreds of hours of track driving experience, or what have you. But we are mostly amateurs and enthusiasts. Not criticizing, just observing.

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Criticism is a part of learning, if you're willing to let it. Sometimes it's acknowledged, sometimes not, and I'll leave it at that.


All I'll ever claim is that the basic attitude of an engineer does tend to carry over into activities outside one's professional world even if you don't get into calculations and engineering analyses of what's going on. That part doesn't involve nearly as long of a learning process as trying to become your own test driver where you can actually identify what needs help, change, or adjustment. As an individual, your test driver self has to find out the 'what', based on accumulated experiences. Your engineer self then gets to at least point the changes in the right direction and cut down the number of iterations before you get it to where you're happy with the result.


Norm

please tell me how you plan on running the cooling duct kits on a base Gt brake set up? The back plate literally blocks the path and theres no way to attach them.