GT350 oil pump and gears

Voodooo · Feb 18, 2017

RadBOSS said:
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Any one go to the parts counter and ask the parts many to look up the pieces for each motor.

I know the gears are the same.
I also know the pump housing are different.

RadBOSS · Feb 18, 2017

btown93 said:
The only thing the parts guy will be able to tell you is that they are different part numbers for the oil pumps. there is no in-depth information such as material type.

I was thinking it might show commonality (same part) between the different versions of this family of engines. Considering the breed, the GT350 and R are probably very unique from its other brothers and thereby less or fewer interchangeable pieces parts.

Forgedwheeler · Feb 20, 2017

The OPGs look like powdered metal. This technology is used when close tolerances are required. PM has been used extensively in connecting rods and other critical components for many years.
I've seen the theory posted many times that Voodoo "RPM, load and vibration are causing the OPGs to fail".
Problem with that theory is the facts don't support it. If it were true, we would see a higher percentage of GT350 track cars with OPG failure. Full throttle, high RPM, lap after lap are exactly those conditions.
What we see are totally random failures, indicative of assembly errors or other mechanical breakage. It doesn't take much FOD to explode an oil pump.
From my seat, the pump gear failures are more likely to be the result of an engine problem than the cause.
Ford takes every engine and does a post-mortem analysis. If they saw the pump as the culprit, it would be crazy to think they would do nothing.
Change the gears to billet if you want, but you'll likely see lower idle/low speed oil pressure due to tolerances and Ford will nix your warranty.

Voodooo · Feb 20, 2017

Forgedwheeler said:
The OPGs look like powdered metal. This technology is used when close tolerances are required. PM has been used extensively in connecting rods and other critical components for many years.
I've seen the theory posted many times that Voodoo "RPM, load and vibration are causing the OPGs to fail".
Problem with that theory is the facts don't support it. If it were true, we would see a higher percentage of GT350 track cars with OPG failure. Full throttle, high RPM, lap after lap are exactly those conditions.
What we see are totally random failures, indicative of assembly errors or other mechanical breakage. It doesn't take much FOD to explode an oil pump.
From my seat, the pump gear failures are more likely to be the result of an engine problem than the cause.
Ford takes every engine and does a post-mortem analysis. If they saw the pump as the culprit, it would be crazy to think they would do nothing.
Change the gears to billet if you want, but you'll likely see lower idle/low speed oil pressure due to tolerances and Ford will nix your warranty.

I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is you keep saying everything is tested which it is. Let's say a cam phaser failed and caused the engine to blow. That part is also tested and like you keep saying ford "engineered everything" Of course it's all speculation, but if the engine blew and pieces of oil pump and cam phaser are in the pan what do you say went first? You'll never know. Either way the engine is a loss.
Why do you assume the oem tolerance of the OPG are better than aftermarket?
What makes you think the aftermarket opg's are of lesser quality and tolerance?
Your speculation is saying aftermarket opg's cause lower idle /low speed oil psi? Really? Well the cobra jet oil pump gear isn't made by ford and they install them on every cobra jet.
Let's be clear here, ford doesn't make the oem OPG either. They can't even fix a recalled set of fking oil cooler hoses in a timely manner.

The oem OPGs are PM. I have one that I bought. It's very porous.

Forgedwheeler · Feb 20, 2017

Voodooo said:
I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is you keep saying everything is tested which it is. Let's say a cam phaser failed and caused the engine to blow. That part is also tested and like you keep saying ford "engineered everything" Of course it's all speculation, but if the engine blew and pieces of oil pump and cam phaser are in the pan what do you say went first? You'll never know. Either way the engine is a loss.
Why do you assume the oem tolerance of the OPG are better than aftermarket?
What makes you think the aftermarket opg's are of lesser quality and tolerance?
Your speculation is saying aftermarket opg's cause lower idle /low speed oil psi? Really? Well the cobra jet oil pump gear isn't made by ford and they install them on every cobra jet.
Let's be clear here, ford doesn't make the oem OPG either. They can't even fix a recalled set of fking oil cooler hoses in a timely manner.

The oem OPGs are PM. I have one that I bought. It's very porous.

I've been involved in the business of machining things to close tolerances for 40 years. I'm not saying it's impossible to make billet gears to very close tolerances, just VERY difficult. There are machine tolerances, tool sharpness, operator competency, material variances, etc. PM is used because it is reasonably strong, VERY precise and incredibly consistent.
The Voodoo has very high idle oil pressure. You get that with A. A big pump. or B. Very close tolerances.
I'm not an oil pump expert. I am an expert in alloys.
I know that I have the contrary view to many of you regarding these OPGs.
It's just a lifetime of work that leads me to question this theory.
I'm struggling with the theory that a small series of random failures gets blamed on the oil pump, when the very conditions set forth in the hypotheses do not lead to any increase in the incidence of failure.
These engines are hand assembled. That can be good and bad. My theory is that humans make mistakes and the pumps are victims here, not the cause.

machsmith · Feb 20, 2017

Voodooo said:
I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is you keep saying everything is tested which it is. Let's say a cam phaser failed and caused the engine to blow. That part is also tested and like you keep saying ford "engineered everything" Of course it's all speculation, but if the engine blew and pieces of oil pump and cam phaser are in the pan what do you say went first? You'll never know. Either way the engine is a loss.
Why do you assume the oem tolerance of the OPG are better than aftermarket?
What makes you think the aftermarket opg's are of lesser quality and tolerance?
Your speculation is saying aftermarket opg's cause lower idle /low speed oil psi? Really? Well the cobra jet oil pump gear isn't made by ford and they install them on every cobra jet.
Let's be clear here, ford doesn't make the oem OPG either. They can't even fix a recalled set of fking oil cooler hoses in a timely manner.

The oem OPGs are PM. I have one that I bought. It's very porous.

I'd like a close up picture of the part, where you can see the porosity.
If it does indeed have porosity, I believe without a doubt, it could be the culprit. It would very much indicate a random failure. Porosity is random thru the part, and it could have just been located in an area that was detrimental to the parts integrity.

DrumReaper · Feb 20, 2017

I feel like I'm watching "Forged in Fire" reading this. I can hear the guys saying, "You have to really know what you're doing with powdered metal." Lol

Forgedwheeler · Feb 20, 2017

machsmith said:
I'd like a close up picture of the part, where you can see the porosity.
If it does indeed have porosity, I believe without a doubt, it could be the culprit. It would very much indicate a random failure. Porosity is random thru the part, and it could have just been located in an area that was detrimental to the parts integrity.

The porosity is intentional. It is part of the design of the part. It maintains lubrication during startup, etc.
This material is quite common in these types of applications.
"Billet gears" sounds cool but could easily have worse tolerances, poorer pumping performance and not contribute at all to Voodoo engine longevity.

machsmith · Feb 20, 2017

Is the porosity strategically placed? I'm not an expert in powdered metal parts, but I do know that in such a thin walled part, if you have porosity and it's not controlled, you never know how bad it is until you cut the part in two. If there isn't control of the "pits and air bubbles" the part could be extremely weak in certain areas.

Epiphany · Feb 20, 2017

I think you are talking surface finish. Porosity, in the context of this conversation, has been with regards to voids being in the gears themselves as a result of the manufacturing process (at times). You do not want a porous gear body nor would you want voids on the gear mesh faces.

Forgedwheeler · Feb 20, 2017

Epiphany said:
I think you are talking surface finish. Porosity, in the context of this conversation, has been with regards to voids being in the gears themselves as a result of the manufacturing process (at times). You do not want a porous gear body nor would you want voids on the gear mesh faces.

Porosity in the integral structure of a powdered metal part would be exceedingly rare. I've never seen it. The way these parts are made makes that unusual.
Surface porosity is an intentional design element.

Forgedwheeler · Feb 20, 2017

Powdered metal parts are also widely used in jet engines, power generating turbines, etc.
Powder delivers the most uniform grain structure achievable in the world of metallurgy.
Powdered metal has extreme uniformity and drastically reduces reject rates in manufacturing. The alloys can be custom blended for high wear resistance and with a homogeneous microstructure and complete freedom from particle contamination.
It is amusing to me to read in these posts that "billet" is fundamentally superior to an alloy that was custom blended with exact performance characteristics and formed to net shape with tolerances that are difficult to achieve in any machining operation.

Epiphany · Feb 20, 2017

Forgedwheeler said:
Porosity in the integral structure of a powdered metal part would be exceedingly rare. I've never seen it. The way these parts are made makes that unusual.
Surface porosity is an intentional design element.

Not on the gear faces. RMS is one thing, voids another. Faces which ride on a bearing, a machined surface, or in cogged/toothed applications. A rough surface finish may indeed be preferrable when you want to inhibit drainback or to keep lubricant on a given surface longer.

machsmith · Feb 20, 2017

Forgedwheeler said:
Porosity in the integral structure of a powdered metal part would be exceedingly rare. I've never seen it. The way these parts are made makes that unusual.
Surface porosity is an intentional design element.

That's what I thought. Porosity in the part would be very bad. I'm sure that the surface finish in the billet gears act as sort of a lube holder much like the Pores do on the powdered metal.
As far as tolerances go, these pumps don't need .0001 tolerance, I'm sure .001 is more than good and I'm sure that a wire EDM will achieve that. In fact, I'd venture to guess the tolerance on the male tooth is probably +.001 and the female is -.001x

I'm sure if powdered metal gears were superior or even equal to machined/ wired gears, top performing performance engines, such as with premiere engine builders, would WANT powdered metal in their engines. This is not the case.

Voodooo · Feb 20, 2017

Forgedwheeler said:
The porosity is intentional. It is part of the design of the part. It maintains lubrication during startup, etc.
This material is quite common in these types of applications.
"Billet gears" sounds cool but could easily have worse tolerances, poorer pumping performance and not contribute at all to Voodoo engine longevity.

Dude wtf. We're not talking about self lubricating bronze here. This is a OPG that's lubricated by pumping engine oil. It's not a dry gear. Hence it's a oil pump.
Depending on the billet gears of course it could have worse tolerances. If it was billet aluminum or a billet of wood. Let's be real here, no powdered metal is superior to a billet when used in a harsh environment such as inside an engine. The reason why they used pm is because it's cheap, fast to make and that's it.

You argue the fact that pm is a good choice. Try putting a pm gear in a manual trans or rear differential gear. Not gonna last.

GT350 oil pump and gears

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