Consolidated My Thoughts On The 2018 Mustang

ApollosWar89 · Jun 26, 2017

millhouse said:
The Raptor doesn't have the history/legacy that the mustang does. People buy a mustang for it's V8 period. Ford knows that the mustang would lose massive sales without a V8 in the lineup.

That statement is pretty farfetched. Given the F- Series sells what the Mustang does for the year in a little over two months.

Mustang was ~4% of Ford's total sales in 2016. I don't know the ratio of V8 Mustangs sold versus non-V8 but let's be over ambitious and call it 1 out of every 2 sold are V8's. In 2015 where the overall Mustang sales were highest in 2015. V8 Mustangs represent only 2.4% of overall sales volume for Ford.

Removing the V8 for a more efficient and powerful EcoBoost engine would sway I'm sure some but not all give the evidence of realistically we know the majority of Mustangs sold aren't V8s. We're talking in the <2% range fluctuations. Minimal but in no way devastating. This is all US sales figures as well as we can assume the ratios are more generous for the V8 using US sales ratios.

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-m...ord-sales-numbers/ford-mustang-sales-numbers/

RocketGuy3 · Jun 26, 2017

millhouse said:
Honestly, no one in their right mind would take the depreciation hit on their 2015-17 to get an 18. I'm sorry, it's just not going to be that radical of a change to justify losing $10k+.

Whether I'm in my right mind or not is highly debatable, but I am very closely considering trading in my 2015 GT PP for the redesigned Mustang GT PP, likely in MY 2019. I'm going to need to take one or two examples for an extensive test drive first, but yeah. There's so many things I want in the new model...

- More HP (probably around 470?)
- Significantly higher redline and faster revving
- [Potentially] Improved fuel economy as a result of DI. Certainly at least less fuel consumption per HP.
- Active exhaust
- LED headlights
- Digital cluster
- Android auto
- Magnetic ride (still not totally sure I want this one, but it's going to be tempting)
- [Hopefully] Improved clutch

To satisfy all those desires aftermarket would cost me more than the $10-15K that trading in for a new one would cost, assuming it was even possible... Then there's just the added benefit of getting a brand new car and scratching that itch again, plus having a renewed warranty.

I used to love holding onto cars for the long haul, but technology changes so fast these days, and ever since an asshole totaled my first car, I've kinda lost a little bit of that connection to cars I buy. Yeah, it's probably a terrible financial investment, but who cares? You can't buy nothing but houses and mutual funds with your money. Gotta splurge a little and have some fun.

And yeah, the front end has definitely grown on me. And I expect to like it even more once I see it in person, but we'll see.

ApollosWar89 said:
That statement is pretty farfetched. Given the F- Series sells what the Mustang does for the year in a little over two months.

Mustang was ~4% of Ford's total sales in 2016. I don't know the ratio of V8 Mustangs sold versus non-V8 but let's be over ambitious and call it 1 out of every 2 sold are V8's. In 2015 where the overall Mustang sales were highest in 2015. V8 Mustangs represent only 2.4% of overall sales volume for Ford.

Removing the V8 for a more efficient and powerful EcoBoost engine would sway I'm sure some but not all give the evidence of realistically we know the majority of Mustangs sold aren't V8s. We're talking in the <2% range fluctuations. Minimal but in no way devastating. This is all US sales figures as well as we can assume the ratios are more generous for the V8 using US sales ratios.

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-m...ord-sales-numbers/ford-mustang-sales-numbers/

IIRC, it's more like 20% of Mustangs sold are V8s... And yeah, the V8 is not going to survive very much longer, especially in a $30K-40K car. Regulations are coming for it.

millhouse · Jun 26, 2017

ApollosWar89 said:
That statement is pretty farfetched. Given the F- Series sells what the Mustang does for the year in a little over two months.

Mustang was ~4% of Ford's total sales in 2016. I don't know the ratio of V8 Mustangs sold versus non-V8 but let's be over ambitious and call it 1 out of every 2 sold are V8's. In 2015 where the overall Mustang sales were highest in 2015. V8 Mustangs represent only 2.4% of overall sales volume for Ford.

Removing the V8 for a more efficient and powerful EcoBoost engine would sway I'm sure some but not all give the evidence of realistically we know the majority of Mustangs sold aren't V8s. We're talking in the <2% range fluctuations. Minimal but in no way devastating. This is all US sales figures as well as we can assume the ratios are more generous for the V8 using US sales ratios.

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-motor-company-sales-numbers/ford-sales-numbers/

http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-m...ord-sales-numbers/ford-mustang-sales-numbers/

It’s not far-fetched at all when you consider I wasn’t talking about overall Ford sales, but rather mustang sales. The problem with ditching the V8 for an ecoboost is that you would lose more than you would gain.

RocketGuy3 said:
Whether I'm in my right mind or not is highly debatable, but I am very closely considering trading in my 2015 GT PP for the redesigned Mustang GT PP, likely in MY 2019. I'm going to need to take one or two examples for an extensive test drive first, but yeah. There's so many things I want in the new model...

- More HP (probably around 470?)
- Significantly higher redline and faster revving
- [Potentially] Improved fuel economy as a result of DI. Certainly at least less fuel consumption per HP.
- Active exhaust
- LED headlights
- Digital cluster
- Android auto
- Magnetic ride (still not totally sure I want this one, but it's going to be tempting)
- [Hopefully] Improved clutch

To satisfy all those desires aftermarket would cost me more than the $10-15K of trading in for a new one would cost, assuming it was even possible... Then there's just the added benefit of getting a brand new car and scratching that itch again, plus having a renewed warranty.

And yeah, the front end has definitely grown on me. And I expect to like it even more once I see it in person, but we'll see.

IIRC, it's more like 20% of Mustangs sold are V8s... And yeah, the V8 is not going to survive very much longer, especially in a $30K-40K car. Regulations are coming for it.

If you think it’s going to have 470 hp, you need to lay down the crack pipe….sorry, not going to happen. I think 455hp is the golden number here.

Everything else you mentioned cost money. That active exhaust is going to cost extra, as is the digital cluster and mag suspension. The performance pack is no longer going to be a budget oriented setup….think more along the lines of a $6k upgrade (think 1le). MSRP on the MY18 you are looking at is going to be north of $46k….and in the end, you’ll be no faster than a tuned/Cai 15-17.

So you’ll be taking a $10k hit on your 2015 and be spending $20k to get a MY18 with all of the options you listed. Is an active exhaust and Mag suspension really worth that? To each their own, but to me….that sounds crazy.

millhouse · Jun 26, 2017

RocketGuy3 said:
Whether I'm in my right mind or not is highly debatable, but I am very closely considering trading in my 2015 GT PP for the redesigned Mustang GT PP, likely in MY 2019. I'm going to need to take one or two examples for an extensive test drive first, but yeah. There's so many things I want in the new model...

- More HP (probably around 470?)
- Significantly higher redline and faster revving
- [Potentially] Improved fuel economy as a result of DI. Certainly at least less fuel consumption per HP.
- Active exhaust
- LED headlights
- Digital cluster
- Android auto
- Magnetic ride (still not totally sure I want this one, but it's going to be tempting)
- [Hopefully] Improved clutch

To satisfy all those desires aftermarket would cost me more than the $10-15K that trading in for a new one would cost, assuming it was even possible... Then there's just the added benefit of getting a brand new car and scratching that itch again, plus having a renewed warranty.

I used to love holding onto cars for the long haul, but technology changes so fast these days, and ever since an asshole totaled my first car, I've kinda lost a little bit of that connection to cars I buy. Yeah, it's probably a terrible financial investment, but who cares? You can't buy nothing but houses and mutual funds with your money. Gotta splurge a little and have some fun.

And yeah, the front end has definitely grown on me. And I expect to like it even more once I see it in person, but we'll see.

IIRC, it's more like 20% of Mustangs sold are V8s... And yeah, the V8 is not going to survive very much longer, especially in a $30K-40K car. Regulations are coming for it.

It's actually closer to 40%

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74791

ApollosWar89 · Jun 26, 2017

millhouse said:
It’s not far-fetched at all when you consider I wasn’t talking about overall Ford sales, but rather mustang sales. The problem with ditching the V8 for an ecoboost is that you would lose more than you would gain.

Your first misconception is thinking that V8 Mustang sales or even Mustang sales, in General, are a considerate amount of Fords business. This is an auto company with shareholders that are the first to be served. No longer having to invest a mile to get an inch on the V8 engines would save Ford much more in the long term than losing an insignificant percentage of its business that actually cares about have a V8 engine in a car. They can simply do what they did with the Raptor. Create an EcoBoost engine that provides greater hp/tq than the current V8s with higher MPG and they would claim most of the holdouts of losing the V8 leaving the few petulant enthusiasts to either buy the Shelby or move on.

Norm Peterson · Jun 26, 2017

ApollosWar89 said:
Mustang was ~4% of Ford's total sales in 2016. I don't know the ratio of V8 Mustangs sold versus non-V8 but let's be over ambitious and call it 1 out of every 2 sold are V8's. In 2015 where the overall Mustang sales were highest in 2015. V8 Mustangs represent only 2.4% of overall sales volume for Ford.

Removing the V8 for a more efficient and powerful EcoBoost engine would sway I'm sure some but not all give the evidence of realistically we know the majority of Mustangs sold aren't V8s. We're talking in the <2% range fluctuations. Minimal but in no way devastating. This is all US sales figures as well as we can assume the ratios are more generous for the V8 using US sales ratios.

It's not that V8 Mustangs are a big part of Ford's bottom line as much as it is that they're a significant portion of Mustang sales. People don't buy Mustangs because of what Ford uses for powerplants in any of its other cars/SUVs/trucks.

I do know that if my choice was between an EB and a NA engine of comparable HP I'd be picking the NA. Even if it had somewhat less HP, I'd still pick NA (and yes, there's some basis in experience behind that preference). Being caught off-boost and having to anticipate (meaning guess) when the power is going to come in on corner exit are not driving characteristics that I care to be "driving around", and I flat-out refuse to spec the rest of the powertrain such that it might do it's own version of driving around these deficiencies for me.

Norm

millhouse · Jun 26, 2017

ApollosWar89 said:
Your first misconception is thinking that V8 Mustang sales or even Mustang sales, in General, are a considerate amount of Fords business. This is an auto company with shareholders that are the first to be served. No longer having to invest a mile to get an inch on the V8 engines would save Ford much more in the long term than losing an insignificant percentage of its business that actually cares about have a V8 engine in a car. They can simply do what they did with the Raptor. Create an EcoBoost engine that provides greater hp/tq than the current V8s with higher MPG and they would claim most of the holdouts of losing the V8 leaving the few petulant enthusiasts to either buy the Shelby or move on.

Losing a substantial amount of sales (via the loss of the V8) would negate the validity of having a mustang chassis, as recouping tooling costs while maintaining a profit would become an impossible task. I (as well as many, many others) would not buy another mustang if it was offered only with a 4/6 cyl variant. If you think I’m in the minority here, you’re dead wrong.

You need to keep in mind, people don’t buy the mustang because it has the most horsepower….they never have. People buy the mustang because it’s an American staple…and for a great deal of us, because it comes with an American V8 engine. You do remember the Ford Probe debacle don’t you?

marks · Jun 26, 2017

Around the world (and I expect it's the same in the US) the Mustang's niche is a V8 with a stick - difficult to get that combination today, especially at a reasonable price. Autos with turbos are ten a penny, and there are many companies that do it better than Ford. If Ford doesn't want to lose sales it needs to differentiate, not emulate.

millhouse · Jun 26, 2017

marks said:
Around the world (and I expect it's the same in the US) the Mustang's niche is a V8 with a stick - difficult to get that combination today, especially at a reasonable price. Autos with turbos are ten a penny, and there are many companies that do it better than Ford. If Ford doesn't want to lose sales it needs to differentiate, not emulate.

Great point. In the UK, Ford had originally anticipated the ecoboost to sell better than the coyote, but were dead wrong. The UK just want the iconic v8 mustang, regardless of fuel prices.

marks · Jun 26, 2017

Exactly, the V8 with the stick was the most popular combination.

RocketGuy3 · Jun 26, 2017

millhouse said:
It's actually closer to 40%

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74791

I may have been thinking specifically of manual GTs? Either way, I'd be curious to see 2016 and 2017 numbers. My suspicion is that people wanting to buy the car in the first year of release are more likely to be brand/Mustang enthusiasts, and therefore are also more likely to go for the top trim.

Anecdotally, I know that whenever I see an S550 around town these days, it rarely seems to have a 5.0 badge.

marks said:
Around the world (and I expect it's the same in the US) the Mustang's niche is a V8 with a stick - difficult to get that combination today, especially at a reasonable price. Autos with turbos are ten a penny, and there are many companies that do it better than Ford. If Ford doesn't want to lose sales it needs to differentiate, not emulate.

That's definitely not the case in the US (depending on how you're using the term "niche") given that V8 manuals are a small minority of Mustangs sold here... Although I think that their existence is something of a "halo" for the icon, and removing that option may make V6's and I4 turbos less appealing. I'm sure that if price or fuel consumption was no concern, 90% of Mustang buyers would go for the V8.

marks · Jun 26, 2017

RocketGuy3 said:
I'm sure that if price or fuel consumption was no concern, 90% of Mustang buyers would go for the V8.

Well on average, our fuel prices are more than twice yours and yet the V8 is more popular ;)

BmacIL · Jun 26, 2017

RocketGuy3 said:
I may have been thinking specifically of manual GTs? Either way, I'd be curious to see 2016 and 2017 numbers. My suspicion is that people wanting to buy the car in the first year of release are more likely to be brand/Mustang enthusiasts, and therefore are also more likely to go for the top trim.

Anecdotally, I know that whenever I see an S550 around town these days, it rarely seems to have a 5.0 badge.

That's definitely not the case in the US (depending on how you're using the term "niche") given that V8 manuals are a small minority of Mustangs sold here... Although I think that their existence is something of a "halo" for the icon, and removing that option may make V6's and I4 turbos less appealing. I'm sure that if price or fuel consumption was no concern, 90% of Mustang buyers would go for the V8.

V8 manual is relatively small, but V8 as a whole is still a very big chunk of Mustang sales in the US and Canada.

RocketGuy3 · Jun 26, 2017

BmacIL said:
V8 manual is relatively small, but V8 as a whole is still a very big chunk of Mustang sales in the US and Canada.

I'm sure it's significant, but I still doubt it's 40% anymore. I would be interested in seeing the latest numbers on that, though. I could be wrong.

If I had to guess based on just my anecdotal experience (especially considering I live in Texas, where V8s should be pretty popular), I'd guess maybe 25% of Mustangs sold today in the US have V8s.

Hack · Jun 26, 2017

ApollosWar89 said:
Your first misconception is thinking that V8 Mustang sales or even Mustang sales, in General, are a considerate amount of Fords business. This is an auto company with shareholders that are the first to be served. No longer having to invest a mile to get an inch on the V8 engines would save Ford much more in the long term than losing an insignificant percentage of its business that actually cares about have a V8 engine in a car. They can simply do what they did with the Raptor. Create an EcoBoost engine that provides greater hp/tq than the current V8s with higher MPG and they would claim most of the holdouts of losing the V8 leaving the few petulant enthusiasts to either buy the Shelby or move on.

Think about it this way - Ford wants people to be excited about their new car and have a strong reason to buy it. I have never owned any Mustang with any version of the 4.6 V8. I never liked that engine and so I never bought one. In 2010 I was still driving 80s Mustangs with drivetrain/suspension changes.

It's possible there are other people like me. If the V8 goes away, I might never buy another new Ford. I like the car I have, and if Ford doesn't make something cool that I want - why would I replace it?

Small turbo engines are expensive and in the real world they don't save much on fuel. Really I see them as more of a scheme from the auto manufacturers to get more money for their cars rather than a real improvement.

Consolidated My Thoughts On The 2018 Mustang

ApollosWar89

Analyst

RocketGuy3

Well-Known Member

millhouse

Well-Known Member

millhouse

Well-Known Member

ApollosWar89

Analyst

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter

millhouse

Well-Known Member

marks

Well-Known Member

millhouse

Well-Known Member

marks

Well-Known Member

RocketGuy3

Well-Known Member

marks

Well-Known Member

BmacIL

Enginerd

RocketGuy3

Well-Known Member

Hack

Well-Known Member