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Whipple belt chirp

Roh92cp

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I would recommend removing the shim and starting back at base. I noticed you have an ATI as well. It would be good to use the Gates laser alignment tool on that as we have come across the balancers to vary during installation as its a very tight press.
I agree that the ATI is a tight press and one may not get full seat if the balancer wasn't heated first to expand it and lube wasn't used. Even with doing that it's possible to not go far enough for full seat. I've installed an OEM and MMR and an ATI and the ATI was the tightest fit for sure.
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I agree that the ATI is a tight press and one may not get full seat if the balancer wasn't heated first to expand it and lube wasn't used. Even with doing that it's possible to not go far enough for full seat. I've installed an OEM and MMR and an ATI and the ATI was the tightest fit for sure.
The ATI damper is a very tight press and sometimes you have to hone the hub to fit, in my case I warmed up the hub before installing and it slid right on over 80 % of the way then I snugged it up with the bolt and it came to a dead stop once seated, then I pulled the bolt out loc tighted it and final torqued it down. I know my balancer is seated and the ribs line up to the water pump and supercharger pulley, if there was a depth problem the AC belt would be off as well.
 

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Here is some pics of mine. Not sure this will help but its hard to get down in there and get good pics. I have the 6 rib belt setup and I do not have any squealing or chirping and hopefully I don't get any. I too am running the ATI balancer.
Thanks for the reply and the pic's yes it is very hard to get good pic's but I found that removing the coolant tank and just pushing it over to the side leaving the hoses connected works very well. If you look at your first pic the 2 smooth idlers on the right you can clearly see that between the 2 contact points of those idlers your belt is NOT running parallel. If you were to look at both of those idlers I bet that the belt is riding towards the back on 1 of them and it's riding somewhere towards the middle or front edge of the 2 nd idler. If you look from the passenger side of the car an draw a line of sight from those 2 idlers to the water pump pulley you will clearly see there is a misalignment of 1 full rib. Now I understand that your car is a perfect example of a good known set up with no squeaks or belt shredding or flipping issues, I just want to know why that misalignment exists a belt should run parallel when you look from the top of 1 surface to the next surface if it doesn't the belt is being forced to ride a certain way.
 

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Here is some pics of mine. Not sure this will help but its hard to get down in there and get good pics. I have the 6 rib belt setup and I do not have any squealing or chirping and hopefully I don't get any. I too am running the ATI balancer.
Correct me if I'm wrong but appears that you are running the old longer belt routing as you belt passes back under the water pump pulley. I am running the new shorter routing which the belt only passes over the water pump pulley and not under again.
 

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The ATI damper is a very tight press and sometimes you have to hone the hub to fit, in my case I warmed up the hub before installing and it slid right on over 80 % of the way then I snugged it up with the bolt and it came to a dead stop once seated, then I pulled the bolt out loc tighted it and final torqued it down. I know my balancer is seated and the ribs line up to the water pump and supercharger pulley, if there was a depth problem the AC belt would be off as well.
Sounds like you got it then. I also measure the alignment of the ATI with the water pump after it was seated. I didn't however use Loctite as ARP recommends there lube for proper torque. Not sure of the validity of the this but Whipple tech stated that improper installation in regards damper bolt torque can lead to issues like harmonics:shrug:
 

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I don't know what the concern about he belt placement in the smooth idlers is all about. It is not an issue at all, the idler pulley is wider than the belt and it doesn't have to be dead center. What matters is the grooved pulleys lining up.
 

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I don't know what the concern about he belt placement in the smooth idlers is all about. It is not an issue at all, the idler pulley is wider than the belt and it doesn't have to be dead center. What matters is the grooved pulleys lining up.
Yes the grooved ones is what directs the belt, smooth can be off although perfect world you want to track in the center. But they are made wide on all OEM's for that reason, they wander.
 

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I would recommend removing the shim and starting back at base. I noticed you have an ATI as well. It would be good to use the Gates laser alignment tool on that as we have come across the balancers to vary during installation as its a very tight press.
So last night around 1:30 am I couldn't sleep due to this thing pissing me off, so I pulled it apart and removed the .070 shims then re assembled it. The belt is now riding in the middle of the supercharger pulley as it is supposed to. After pulling it all apart and inspecting everything I have come to this conclusion my original tensioner was not running true to the mounting point therefore the combination of the shim and the tensioner being tweaked rearward was keeping the belt on the supercharger pulley, then when I put the new tensioner on it was machined true and it forced the belt to move forward making it skip one rib forward on the supercharger pulley. Now by removing the shim it has brought the belt back to it's normal position on the supercharger pulley.

Now this is the part that needs an explanation I have verified via a straight edge that my ATI damper, water pump pulley and supercharger pulley are all in alignment. Why is the belt riding to the very back of the smooth idler that is closest to the tensioner and this is where the belt rides one rib off when compared to the water pump pulley. Yet when the belt rides over the top 2 idlers that are beneath the supercharger pulley the belt rides parallel and the belt is close to the middle of the smooth idler with equal gap on both sides. And yet the belt rides to the very back edge of the smooth idler closest to the tensioner ? I would like an explanation for this I believe that it is due to the design of the idler bracket and the proximity of the 3 idlers and the tensioner being so close to each other.

The only solution that I see is to machine down the step spacer that sits behind that 1 smooth idler that is closest to the tensioner. By doing so it would allow the smooth idler to move towards the bracket and hence the belt would not ride on the rear edge any longer. I don't like the idea of the belt riding close to either the front or rear edge of the idler as when the belt is under load it could catch the edge and now you either break the belt or shred it.

One other thing I forgot to mention the belt walks fore and aft on the idlers about .060 - .070 and none of the idlers a wobbling is this normal movement as I don't see it doing that on the opposite side of the drive system where the alternator and adjustable idlers sits. The belt rides bang on the center of those smooth pulleys and there is no belt walk on that side.

Awaiting your response Whipple.
 

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I don't know what the concern about he belt placement in the smooth idlers is all about. It is not an issue at all, the idler pulley is wider than the belt and it doesn't have to be dead center. What matters is the grooved pulleys lining up.
The concern about the belt location on the smooth idlers is that the belt is riding to the extreme edge. That in combination with the belt walking fore and aft is a recipe for a shredded belt. This is all happening at idle what do you think is going to happen at 7500 rpm ?
 

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Sounds like you got it then. I also measure the alignment of the ATI with the water pump after it was seated. I didn't however use Loctite as ARP recommends there lube for proper torque. Not sure of the validity of the this but Whipple tech stated that improper installation in regards damper bolt torque can lead to issues like harmonics:shrug:
The friction co efficient of the ARP lube requires a lower torque reading, when using Loctite you must increase the torque by about 15 - 25 %. I would never put on the balancer bolt in a supercharged application without Loctite, and the loads and harmonics are exactly the reason you want it on there. If that bolt backs out say goodbye to your newly replaced engine as the timing sprocket will walk forward when the balancer moves and you can guess what happens from there.
 

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The friction co efficient of the ARP lube requires a lower torque reading, when using Loctite you must increase the torque by about 15 - 25 %. I would never put on the balancer bolt in a supercharged application without Loctite, and the loads and harmonics are exactly the reason you want it on there. If that bolt backs out say goodbye to your newly replaced engine as the timing sprocket will walk forward when the balancer moves and you can guess what happens from there.
I've seen Loctite literature from Henkel the states no change in torque value when using loctite. Oddest thing to research as I've seen plenty of discussions stating the opposite.
 

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The concern about the belt location on the smooth idlers is that the belt is riding to the extreme edge. That in combination with the belt walking fore and aft is a recipe for a shredded belt. This is all happening at idle what do you think is going to happen at 7500 rpm ?
Yah, I get it what I'm saying is it's a non issue. It's in the norm for a belt to ride on a smooth idler from either side of center even straight out of the factory. What shouldn't be happening is the belt moving for and aft on the smooth pulley. It's ideal for it to ride dead center but not absolute.
 

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I've seen Loctite literature from Henkel the states no change in torque value when using loctite. Oddest thing to research as I've seen plenty of discussions stating the opposite.
My comment was based on my own personal experience, before ARP lube was used people used engine oil and sometimes a lube very similar to peanut butter. For example when you torque down an ARP head stud with oil they want 130 ft lbs but the same fastener with ARP lube only requires 100 ft lbs. To each there own one can read all they want but there is no substitute for real world experience. Does it say in any literature that you should use a .035 shim to align your belt on your supercharger.:D
 

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Yah, I get it what I'm saying is it's a non issue. It's in the norm for a belt to ride on a smooth idler from either side of center even straight out of the factory. What shouldn't be happening is the belt moving for and aft on the smooth pulley. It's ideal for it to ride dead center but not absolute.
I totally agree with you except for the fact that the belt is already riding on the extreme edge of the idler and that is a problem period. If it had .100 on each side of the belt then no problem but that simply isn't the case here.
 

Roh92cp

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The friction co efficient of the ARP lube requires a lower torque reading, when using Loctite you must increase the torque by about 15 - 25 %. I would never put on the balancer bolt in a supercharged application without Loctite, and the loads and harmonics are exactly the reason you want it on there. If that bolt backs out say goodbye to your newly replaced engine as the timing sprocket will walk forward when the balancer moves and you can guess what happens from there.
So did you use the ARP torque spec of 100 and with loctite you added 15-25% so 115-125 final TQ then?
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