2017 Ford Mustang will outperform Chevy Camaro in every way

garagelogic said:

The "House" members seem to be turning on themselves. Some, as you would expect, are defending the car, most are very unhappy or "meh" about it.

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I seen that... That thread has some quality posters. We need to poach a handful of those members. The team we have here that represent the Camaro is very poor. Less trying to discredit the messenger and more time developing a positive message of some kind. I will admit, with the Camaro's current situation, it is difficult to formulate the positives into an articulate message... It is difficult to find positives right now. Anything GM says that the poster does support is always at risk of being made a fool. Aside from defending the Nurburgring cheating, the magazine circus and the rule cushioning in Motorsport, there are bound to be some positives in there.

Number 3 buckling was a shock as was the moderators openly condemning the car. There are a handful of members in that thread that need to represent the Camaro here. I have a feeling we will see Bhobbs pretty soon. He is a straight shooter and a logical thinker as well as a decent writer. His endless speculation and ability to connect the dots makes him appear very intelligent. He's the kind of guy that sits and thinks about this stuff all day.

I would rather have a group of logical thinkers represent the Camaro here instead of the typical ban-magnets. Just my two cents...

K-Roll302 said:

I'm just looking forwards to the actual official Camaro pics and specs. I have a friend at the reveal right now. I come from a mostly Ford Family, but I'm not devoted to any American maker, and I'm not a Ford or Chevy Devotee or Loyalist. I've always prefered the Mustang until I saw the 2015 Challenger in person, and this Camaro intrigues me. And Seeing as I'm planning on waiting until 2017 to see what the car world is like, I could be swayed any way.

I hope this new Camaro is as good as GM says it is; and if that happens to be so, I can't wait to see what Ford does in response, if anything needs to be done.

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I don't think Ford has to "respond" in any way to the 6th Gen Camaro. The Mustang might not equal the performance of the Camaro (and that is 100% speculation at this point anyway) but since when has that really mattered to most non-enthusiast buyer? People like to throw around words like "crushes" and "demolishes" when describing the variances in instrumented testing between the two cars, but the margin is so small, it only matters to people looking for bragging rights. In the real world, the Mustang is just a better car than this new Camaro looks to be.

Northern Stallion said:

I love my S550 V6 and i wish Ford gave the V6 the respect it deserves, being a true, tried and tested muscle car. Like Chevrolet's lineup it should of been l4, V6, V8.

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I understand the confusion at first, the 6, 4, 8. The thing is, the EB4 is the future base Mustang. Instead of dropping the V6 completely, they will continue to offer it...slowly phasing it out.

I believe this will likely continue until the Coyote gets DI and produces around 465hp. I am hoping this is a MY17 change to combat the potential LT1 SS.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the Voodoo get direct injection as well. What this does is create room... The Coyote will likely be 465-475hp and the Voodoo 550+

The Ecoboost 4 will move to base and continue to be 325-335hp.

Ford will introduce the Ecoboost 3.5 (not the TT3.5 in the GT) into the lineup in 2018. It will be the mid-level model at 400-420hp (perfect for CTSC).

A few reasons this doesn't happen right now...

Sales... The V6 still sells, especially at the fleet level.

Coyote Direct Injection... Not needed yet, on deck for the 3rd Gen Coyote and an answer for the Camaro.

The Ecoboost 3.5 is still a little pricey. This is quickly changing as more and more engines are sold.

I also have a feeling the Voodoo and EB2.3 will see a slight displacement decrease. Once DI comes out, I think the Voodoo will go back to the Coyote's square bore/stroke. This could also ease up on counter balance and internal weight. It could spin to 10,000rpm and be 550+hp.

The 2.3 will be reduced to a 2.0. This will help get a better MPG rating and the Camaro's 270hp 2.0 will be difficult to beat as is. This will also alleviate the over the 2 liter tax in the globally sold EB2.0 Mustang. They won't need to be 340+HP but who knows, that could still be possible in a EB2.0.

garagelogic said:

I don't think Ford has to "respond" in any way to the 6th Gen Camaro. The Mustang might not equal the performance of the Camaro (and that is 100% speculation at this point anyway) but since when has that really mattered to most non-enthusiast buyer? People like to throw around words like "crushes" and "demolishes" when describing the variances in instrumented testing between the two cars, but the margin is so small, it only matters to people looking for bragging rights. In the real world, the Mustang is just a better car than this new Camaro looks to be.

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That's why I said "if anything needs to be done".

Everything we're speculating, everything we're complaining on about, performance and trap speeds and responsiveness and specs such, of course it doesn't matter to the non-enthusiast buyers; but that's what makes us different. And I didn't throw any of those asinine or worthless comments into this thread either.

I'm holding all judgement for this new Camaro until I:

1. Get better pictures of it
2. See it in person
3. Actually drive the damn thing

But so many people swear by Ford that they won't do so much as drive a Chevy that I don't even take those comments seriously unless they've actually driven or had some legitimate form of experience with the car.

I'm just gonna sit back and watch and wait.

The magazines will have it beating the Mustang. Real world may be different. Ford will wait a year and up the Mustang's specs to counter.

Here is my '70 inspired chop of Car and Drivers R130 photoshop. This would have been more of an evolutionary design. The 6th Gen isn't even an evolution in styling really, it's pretty much copy and paste and in poor taste. The rear of this chop needs more C7 in it. It's clean but still lots to look at without being busy. I admit, the fascia isn't finished but I got a pretty good idea of what a modern Camaro would look.




Hardcore '70 inspired. Needs a bumper somewhere and a bumper guard. Probably not doable unless you set the engine back. Like a C7 so you have room for beam support. The Camaro would need an extended nose, which this one has.




Here is my pride and joy. So simple and screaming 1969... If I get time I will post the original. This actually has a lot done to it, it's just not obvious. This is my 2013 Z/28 concept I made in the first quarter of 2011. I wanted to see a Z/28 offered as a MY13 because I claimed a refresh would be happening due to poor sales. This is where Fenwick grew beef, because I am making insane statements 3 years in advance...




Here is the comparison from the donor image. This is actually NOT the 2010 Camaro. This is the 2006 Camaro Concept which was based on the Pontiac G(something) and had a 110.5 inch wheelbase. The donor image was an overall more modern and sporty, swooping design. It was the Camaro I seen in magazines only to sh!t my pants when I arrived in Hawaii for an SS and V6, 18 day test.



Not only is this Camaro a 110.5 inch WB concept, I made other changes.

The rear overhang was shortened to resemble the Corvette at the time. Custom Camaro duck tail, doors and rockets are pulled up a decent amount and the front fascia I did myself with virtual clay. I also added the revered Leno hood. I'm not sure about the wind tunnel stuff but it doesn't look good :lol:

thePill said:

I understand the confusion at first, the 6, 4, 8. The thing is, the EB4 is the future base Mustang. Instead of dropping the V6 completely, they will continue to offer it...slowly phasing it out.

I believe this will likely continue until the Coyote gets DI and produces around 465hp. I am hoping this is a MY17 change to combat the potential LT1 SS.

It wouldn't surprise me to see the Voodoo get direct injection as well. What this does is create room... The Coyote will likely be 465-475hp and the Voodoo 550+

The Ecoboost 4 will move to base and continue to be 325-335hp.

Ford will introduce the Ecoboost 3.5 (not the TT3.5 in the GT) into the lineup in 2018. It will be the mid-level model at 400-420hp (perfect for CTSC).

A few reasons this doesn't happen right now...

Sales... The V6 still sells, especially at the fleet level.

Coyote Direct Injection... Not needed yet, on deck for the 3rd Gen Coyote and an answer for the Camaro.

The Ecoboost 3.5 is still a little pricey. This is quickly changing as more and more engines are sold.

I also have a feeling the Voodoo and EB2.3 will see a slight displacement decrease. Once DI comes out, I think the Voodoo will go back to the Coyote's square bore/stroke. This could also ease up on counter balance and internal weight. It could spin to 10,000rpm and be 550+hp.

The 2.3 will be reduced to a 2.0. This will help get a better MPG rating and the Camaro's 270hp 2.0 will be difficult to beat as is. This will also alleviate the over the 2 liter tax in the globally sold EB2.0 Mustang. They won't need to be 340+HP but who knows, that could still be possible in a EB2.0.

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I understand Ford's move to sell a 4 banger worldwide and the fuel economy ratings etc. But for myself if there's no V6 in the future i'll save $ longer and get a V8. In a muscle car i need the engine to roar like a beast and the ecoboost can't replicate that sound. The ecoboost is great for tuners and appeals to a younger crowd (which is perfect for Ford's future sales). In terms of marketing it should of been entry level if you are targeting a younger crowd, as that market tends to be less affluent. And for the new Camaro, good luck... The Mustang will always be the original pony car and the best one there is.

Northern Stallion said:

I understand Ford's move to sell a 4 banger worldwide and the fuel economy ratings etc. But for myself if there's no V6 in the future i'll save $ longer and get a V8. In a muscle car i need the engine to roar like a beast and the ecoboost can't replicate that sound. The ecoboost is great for tuners and appeals to a younger crowd (which is perfect for Ford's future sales). In terms of marketing it should of been entry level if you are targeting a younger crowd, as that market tends to be less affluent. And for the new Camaro, good luck... The Mustang will always be the original pony car and the best one there is.

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Looking at mustangs recent history i find those numbers unlikely! Maybe they might be able to push the coyote to 450 for the 2017 or beyond model years!

No DI but i can see a 8 or 9 speed auto and 7 speed manual with more aluminum and light weight materials! Definitely a more powerful ecoboost v6 and a gt500 running the same engine as the upcoming Ford GT!

Sasuketr said:

Looking at mustangs recent history i find those numbers unlikely! Maybe they might be able to push the coyote to 450 for the 2017 or beyond model years!

No DI but i can see a 8 or 9 speed auto and 7 speed manual with more aluminum and light weight materials! Definitely a more powerful ecoboost v6 and a gt500 running the same engine as the upcoming Ford GT!

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That wasn't from me. The Pill wrote that and i think he knows a little bit more about the industry than i do. ;)

We keep hearing from the Bowtie crew that the SS is going to out accelerate the GT in 0-60 and the quarter mile. GM hasn't announced gearing on this yet. They are in love with maximized mileage requirements and keeping off the GG tax. I keep wondering if we are going to see a base 2.73 gear with the 8 speed automatic. It might not be as quick as some of them think. Guess we will have to wait and see, but I won't be shocked one bit to see an "economy" gear offered as the base gear in the SS and it will be numerically lower than the 3.15 "economy" gear in the GT.

Anyone have the gearing breakdowns of the 8 speed automatic in the Corvette? And its final gear ratio? Thanks.

Free Agent said:

We keep hearing from the Bowtie crew that the SS is going to out accelerate the GT in 0-60 and the quarter mile. GM hasn't announced gearing on this yet. They are in love with maximized mileage requirements and keeping off the GG tax. I keep wondering if we are going to see a base 2.73 gear with the 8 speed automatic. It might not be as quick as some of them think. Guess we will have to wait and see, but I won't be shocked one bit to see an "economy" gear offered as the base gear in the SS and it will be numerically lower than the 3.15 "economy" gear in the GT.

Anyone have the gearing breakdowns of the 8 speed automatic in the Corvette? And its final gear ratio? Thanks.

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The Ecotech 2.0 will be tough to beat in fuel economy. I think the output was kept low in order to advertise some astronomical MPG numbers in a 3525lbs Camaro. 33mpg, the highest rated MPG on a Pony Car ever. Ford chose the 2.3 because it needed to distance itself from its V6 offering. I feel once the V6 is gone, Ford will probably go back down to an Ecoboost 2.0 to help Europeans avoid the "Over 2 Liter" tax and MPG's overall.

(Cont...)

Free Agent said:

The thing is it is meh. They were expecting a home run and they got a reached base on error. They should be upset. It is a "safe", softened, feminized, corporate designed, sedanish design. Performance and interior will be this versions strong suit but all people see is the outward design and it is bland. First impressions they say. We'd be glad to welcome them with open arms over here. :ford: Gotta remember I'm a lifelong GM, first time Ford buyer too.

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"safe" is a sure thing and I agree with you there.

Honestly, I've read and thought the same thing you just said about the new Mustang as well. It sells.

JustACarGuy said:

"safe" is a sure thing and I agree with you there.

Honestly, I've read and thought the same thing you just said about the new Mustang as well. It sells.

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The difference being, at least to me, is the new Mustang isn't a complete rehash of the poorly-selling-relative-to-its-competition model being replaced. It should be interesting to see where this goes as I'm of the opinion that most of the car buying public -- even those that buy cars such as Mustangs and Camaros -- care only about which car looks better. To me, no amount of LT1 this or Magnetic Ride that is going to help the, well, "new" Camaro. Of course, I may sing a different tune following today's big unveil.

Vernichtung said:

The difference being, at least to me, is the new Mustang isn't a complete rehash of the poorly-selling-relative-to-its-competition model being replaced. It should be interesting to see where this goes as I'm of the opinion that most of the car buying public -- even those that buy cars such as Mustangs and Camaros -- care only about which car looks better. To me, no amount of LT1 this or Magnetic Ride that is going to help the, well, "new" Camaro. Of course, I may sing a different tune following today's big unveil.

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I agree with you as well on the point that looks sell, and the rest is icing on the cake. That's how I operate. That said, I think the new Camaro will sell just fine, and today's HD photos will tell a better story than what we've seen from yesterday. Will it make us feel the car is completely different from what we saw yesterday? I'm not going that far.

There are sharp lines and angles in that hood that couldn't be made out at all yesterday. I hope to see them clearly today. Also, hope to see a fantastic interior

But I'm not convinced it will outsell Mustang either...at least not almost consecutively like the 5th gen did. I think Camaro will have a tougher time with sales this time around.

If the "leaked" specs are true, then since it says "estimated" 440 HP V8 and "estimated" 330 HP V6, we should just assume 5+ HP and TQ on top of that. ATS-V was estimated 450, and came out over 460.

JustACarGuy said:

I agree with you as well on the point that looks sell, and the rest is icing on the cake. That's how I operate. That said, I think the new Camaro will sell just fine, and today's HD photos will tell a better story than what we've seen from yesterday. Will it make us feel the car is completely different from what we saw yesterday? I'm not going that far.

There are sharp lines and angles in that hood that couldn't be made out at all yesterday. I hope to see them clearly today. Also, hope to see a fantastic interior

But I'm not convinced it will outsell Mustang either...at least not almost consecutively like the 5th gen did. I think Camaro will have a tougher time with sales this time around.

If the "leaked" specs are true, then since it says "estimated" 440 HP V8 and "estimated" 330 HP V6, we should just assume 5+ HP and TQ on top of that. ATS-V was estimated 450, and came out over 460.

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Excellent points, my friend.