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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

Baron95

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Because Ford isn't making track cars, they are making street cars that can be driven at the track. More people will buy a PP2 at the new prices than the same PP2 with an extra $3k tacked on for the extra options required to make it "race ready".

Most people don't/won't run these cars for hours on end at the track. And of course, running in any type of sanctioned race voids the warranty.

Ford cares less about the 10-20 people bitching that the new PP2 won't be capable of running hot laps for hours on end than the majority that won't ever get the car to run in limp mode.

Your entire argument falls in the face of evidence.

Why did Ford make the proper cooling package standard on the GT350, then?


The percentage of people taking a Mustang GT PP2 to the track is likely to be a lot higher than the folks buying a base GT350.

The PP2 is the most track focused Mustang GT. The Base GT350 is the least track focused GT350 (the R being the most).

Yet, the GT350 base gets the cooling package, but the GT PP2 does not.









P.S. This has nothing to do with "race ready" or running for hours on track, since the Mustang GT will run out of fuel after ~1HR on track. This is about enjoying the performance of these cars on 20-30 min sessions in *** the only safe and legal place to do so *** - a high performance driving event - without having the car go limp with warning lights after 3 laps.
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saf1

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Of course it is very different.

In the GT350 - Ford's Halo Performance Car - they *** KNEW*** that a a cooling package was needed for track work. And they deliberately left it off a the two most popular configuration (Base and Tech Pack), and even made it impossible to get it with the very popular Tech Pack config.

That is knowingly leaving off a cooling package that is required for enjoying a performance car on track.

The other examples you cited (vibration, stop sales, etc) are quality/design escapes, not previously known to the manufacture, and not deliberate.

Listen. There is no need to debate this as it relates to the GT350. Ford recognized its mistake and in 2017 made the minimum needed cooling package standard.

The *** only question *** in my mind is: Why are they doing it again with the PP2? Why leave the cooling package off, not offer it even as an option, and hide behind a statement in the owner's manual?

Makes no sense to me, particularly when the competition imposes no such drama on buyers.
The biasness in you is strong....but whatever. To answer your question regarding the current PP2 package and why? Because it probably isn't needed or wasn't offered with the earlier performance packages. I own a 2015 GT/PP. The car doesn't need cooling because it exceeds my skill level and I don't push the envelope. If I was able to then I wouldn't have bought the GT/PP to begin with and would have sought out a proper GT350 or R model - or even a previous model year Boss.

Here is the deal - I don't really disagree with you outside of what is known, not known, and why. Why doesn't matter. If someone owns a GT350 in the model year with issues and/or concerns get onboard with the class action. But to say it is Ford's HALO car and everything else with similar issues gets a pass or different, well, that is stretching it a bit. GM is just has guilty of heat soak and/or over heating at track events. Search and you will find them. Why do you think they added a metric ton of cooling to the latest car?

Also note - I do not care which car you own, drive, or manufacture you are in love with. Never said one is better than the other - all water off a ducks back to me. Everyone on this forum obviously is a car nut so we at least have that in common. Everything else aside is just our own personal biasness. I give any of the manufactures the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know and just didn't catch it. But of course I could be totally wrong. At the end of the day no one got hurt.
 

saf1

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This is about enjoying the performance of these cars on 20-30 min sessions in *** the only safe and legal place to do so *** - a high performance driving event - without having the car go limp with warning lights after 3 laps.
That is a pretty solid argument...
 

Baron95

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To answer your question regarding the current PP2 package and why? Because it probably isn't needed
That is what I'm hoping for.

As to other manufacturers having heating issues, I am very aware of that, having dealt with transmission overheating issues on my C7 Corvette (just sold it).

And that is exactly my point. Manufacturers of high-performance cars know that their customers are increasingly taking these cars to track events and testing their cooling performance. So, proper engineering dictates having a heat margin built in on your performance cars that come with giant brakes, low splitters, great suspensions, sticky rubber, which tends to attract the track rats.

Doing anything less is an invitation to ruin a car's reputation.
 

Baron95

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P.S.1: Buying a car with Cup 2 tires, to put around on the street without ever getting the tires to the temps where they actually work well is a bit silly.

P.S.2: Buying a car with a low splitter that scrapes everywhere, without taking the car to an environment (track) where they are of benefit is a bit silly.

The above is a bit like the guy who never gets dates leaving the house every day with 4 condoms in his back pockets. The ring marks may look the part, but he never actually joins the fun.
 

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saf1

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P.S.1: Buying a car with Cup 2 tires, to put around on the street without ever getting the tires to the temps where they actually work well is a bit silly.

P.S.2: Buying a car with a low splitter that scrapes everywhere, without taking the car to an environment (track) where they are of benefit is a bit silly.

The above is a bit like the guy who never gets dates leaving the house every day with 4 condoms in his back pockets. The ring marks may look the part, but he never actually joins the fun.
Lol. This made me giggle. Thanks.
 

millhouse

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Your entire argument falls in the face of evidence.

Why did Ford make the proper cooling package standard on the GT350, then?


The percentage of people taking a Mustang GT PP2 to the track is likely to be a lot higher than the folks buying a base GT350.

The PP2 is the most track focused Mustang GT. The Base GT350 is the least track focused GT350 (the R being the most).

Yet, the GT350 base gets the cooling package, but the GT PP2 does not.








P.S. This has nothing to do with "race ready" or running for hours on track, since the Mustang GT will run out of fuel after ~1HR on track. This is about enjoying the performance of these cars on 20-30 min sessions in *** the only safe and legal place to do so *** - a high performance driving event - without having the car go limp with warning lights after 3 laps.
You obviously didn't read a lick of what I said.

The amount of complaints about these cars going into limp mode is tiny in comparison to the money they will make by selling these cars to folks that will likely never see them go into limp mode.

And those that do need to only look in their manual to see that they need to upgrade to an aftermarket cooler.

Are there other options? Yes...but let's not pretend the PP2 is Fords all out racing option. Hell, with the exception of the GT350R, they may not have an all out track option for the GT...they never have in the past (they have all been different models).

You can bitch and moan all you want, but you are going to be in the minority...and if it means losing 100 sales for Ford, do you really think they care when they gained an extra 1000 sales from having a lower pricepoint?
 

thehunterooo

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On the 12 sec (closer to 13 sec of course) LMR run.

“You're intentionally playing ignorant. Not one person dismissed that run”

“I don't think the Camaro has much to worry about at this point. These shops have been known to exaggerate their results or to leave out crucial info when they post their hero runs”

:thinking:

Also LMR, AM and CJPP are now said to be hyping the 2018 Mustang with fake news to sell cars and in turn sell more aftermarket parts......
 

FastCarFanBoy

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Your entire argument falls in the face of evidence.

Why did Ford make the proper cooling package standard on the GT350, then?


The percentage of people taking a Mustang GT PP2 to the track is likely to be a lot higher than the folks buying a base GT350.

The PP2 is the most track focused Mustang GT. The Base GT350 is the least track focused GT350 (the R being the most).

Yet, the GT350 base gets the cooling package, but the GT PP2 does not.









P.S. This has nothing to do with "race ready" or running for hours on track, since the Mustang GT will run out of fuel after ~1HR on track. This is about enjoying the performance of these cars on 20-30 min sessions in *** the only safe and legal place to do so *** - a high performance driving event - without having the car go limp with warning lights after 3 laps.
Ford Probably expected people who planned on tracking the GT350 to buy either the "track pack" or R for track work depending on how hard core the person was into it. That proved to be a mistake which they later corrected.

Now if the PP2 overheats on a 20min session I agree that will be a huge fail
 

BailoutBowtie

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Ford Probably expected people who planned on tracking the GT350 to buy either the "track pack" or R for track work depending on how hard core the person was into it. That proved to be a mistake which they later corrected.

Now if the PP2 overheats on a 20min session I agree that will be a huge fail
Yeah the coolers should have come standard in all of them at beginning of production, but at least Ford corrected it. , personally i'd be the guy to purchase a gt350 tech just for that voodoo and save the 7k for the track stuff as i would never use it.
 

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68fbjjz109

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This thread needs more cow bell. Here is what I find wrong with IMSA / SCCA, or most forms of auto racing today. This very thread whereas people are bickering back and forth while waving around their lower abdominal sexual organ yelling whos is bigger.

Seriously. IMSA/SCCA needs a class for this very reason that is labeled showroom floor sticker racing. You go in, buy a car, buy a helmet, fill it full of gas, and race it. Can't get any simpler than that. Once the race is done impound the bloody cars and transport them to the next track, factory maintenance only, factory OEM parts, tires, how it is sold, and repeat. Would be interesting to see and I bet a lot of the fishing stories posted in this thread would disappear and replaced with facts.
NASCAR would be way more interesting with the same rules. Fusion Titanium pegging off the rev limiters, Camry rods shooting through hoods, airbags going off, tires exploding. Lets be honest it would be glorious.
 

saf1

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NASCAR would be way more interesting with the same rules. Fusion Titanium pegging off the rev limiters, Camry rods shooting through hoods, airbags going off, tires exploding. Lets be honest it would be glorious.
Ironically it had those rules. Production run of what, 500? Its how we got the Superbird, the Talladega, Hemi and Boss, right? Over the years sadly it has changed and of course we lucked out this year with the best team and driver winning the series by luck due to this stupid format. Glad I'm not sucked into that fan base as much anymore with the youth movement. I'd wager NASCAR and the NFL are both on their way out judging by the number of empty seats.
 

ALUSA

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According to head2head Twitter 1le and gtpp1 are not close in performance on the track but the street. If i remember right, MT has never tested the new 1le on streets of willow 1.7 mile track. Their old 1le according to the current times is even 1 second faster than their current regular ss camaro. I m wondering if the new 1le is really going to put better times than the old one. Now we all know the mustang is lacking serious rubber and knowing MT they will still praise the mustang for being better than the 15-17 versions and maybe pick it over the 1le on the street. I m hoping for the gtpp1 to put at least better time than the regular ss. This wait is taking too long.
 

Baron95

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According to head2head Twitter 1le and gtpp1 are not close in performance on the track but the street....
MotorTrend is milking this (as they should) to the last drop. They know that this is the most anticipated Head2Head. But we all know the result. The 1LE will be faster on the road circuit, the Mustang will win because it is fresher, better looking, etc.

To me the only question is if the GT is now faster than the GT350 and how much of the gap to the 1LE they closed on track.
 

JohnnyUtah

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According to head2head Twitter 1le and gtpp1 are not close in performance on the track but the street. If i remember right, MT has never tested the new 1le on streets of willow 1.7 mile track. Their old 1le according to the current times is even 1 second faster than their current regular ss camaro. I m wondering if the new 1le is really going to put better times than the old one. Now we all know the mustang is lacking serious rubber and knowing MT they will still praise the mustang for being better than the 15-17 versions and maybe pick it over the 1le on the street. I m hoping for the gtpp1 to put at least better time than the regular ss. This wait is taking too long.
The new 1LE is significantly faster than the gen 5 1LE. I am 2-3 seconds faster on a road course in my 17 1LE vs my 14 1LE.
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