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Catch Cans, and Is there evidence???

Maggneto

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I have not seen or read about any issues with our 2.3 EB motors regarding carbon buildup on the valves. There are lots of opinions about why they are needed but until I see proof of an existing problem on multiple 2.3 EB engines I am not convinced a catch can is needed. Also, there is a warranty question mark when using a catch can. It simply isn't worth it in my opinion. Oil in a catch can doesn't mean the design is flawed or not working as designed.
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Marvinmadman

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When I pulled my intake manifold to install the catch can, there was oil inside the runners. Along with smoking at idle. Not sure why everyone thinks that's OK. That's at only 5k miles.
 

Maggneto

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When I pulled my intake manifold to install the catch can, there was oil inside the runners. Along with smoking at idle. Not sure why everyone thinks that's OK. That's at only 5k miles.
Smoke at idle is not normal and does not occur on all EB's. There is a TSB regarding the PCV that may have needed an update. I have the first gen PCV and no smoke at idle.

If you have smoke at idle take it to the dealer and have it checked. Being a backyard mechanic and installing things may make the problem worst, create new problems, and void the warranty.

So to be clear, we all don't think smoke at idle is normal and OK. It also doesn't prove that all EB's need a catch can because a few EB's smoke at idle.
 
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lightNfast

lightNfast

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Yea, I definitly don't have any smoke...

Are you sure it's not just condensation from your exhaust? You should be able to tell by the smell, or if you let it warm up it should go away.
 

HISSMAN

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If you are burning enough oil to create smoke at the tail pipe, then you have other issues.
No one is saying that catch cans won't catch oil. But it's that the amount of oil going into the PCV system per engine rotation is so small that it would be hard for any scientific measurement to take place.
 

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While not the same engines, still the same mechanics. My 2015 WRX FA20 DI engine at 43k miles, no catch can. Only reason I had it blasted was because I installed port meth injection so figured I'd get it done since I had everything off.
IMG_0176.jpg
 

DavidHuff

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Yea, I definitly don't have any smoke...

Are you sure it's not just condensation from your exhaust? You should be able to tell by the smell, or if you let it warm up it should go away.[/
I think the valves in the above post on the WRX looked good with 43,000 miles on them.
 

Marvinmadman

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Smoke at idle was after a catless downpipe install. It's been documented. I already have the updated PCV box. If the system is sensitive enough that a catless downpipe throws it out of whack, why does anyone believe it works good enough is beyond me.
 

Maggneto

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Smoke at idle was after a catless downpipe install. It's been documented. I already have the updated PCV box. If the system is sensitive enough that a catless downpipe throws it out of whack, why does anyone believe it works good enough is beyond me.
The car was developed with a catalytic converter and removing it changes the pressure causing the problem. Don't remove the cat and you won't have that problem. Why do people think it is OK to just change things without consequences? Somehow this is Ford's fault because you need to void the warranty by adding a catch can because you illegally removed the cat which caused white smoke?
 

Marvinmadman

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It's not a big deal to me. Catch cans are on all my engines. And I seen it was going to do exactly what it did. I already had the catch can and installed it the next day. My 3.5 EB had horrible valve coking at 80k miles. Installed catless downpipes and had no smoking issue with the obvious crappy PCV system that Ford designed. 100k warranty and they said it was normal and no big deal. Pulled the upper plenum and cleaned them myself, designed the UPR catch can with Joe and never looked back. Have fun without a catch can.
 
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UPRjoe

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why are catch cans needed on our motors? Does the crankcase not have proper ventilation, does blowby/oil spray really effect our air/fuel mixture, etc?
To the point.

These engines do need catch cans as they are not properly ventilated for boosted applications. The EcoBoost engine can and will ingest oil and then it will reduce octane rating and disrupt optimal combustion and this reduces power and efficiency. If the engine ingests oil at WOT it will then trip the knock sensor and lower the timing to stop the knock or detonation.

This is absolutely what these engines do as we have thousands of catch cans on Ecoboost engines from 2.3 all the way up to the 3.5 and the none of them have a PCV system that will stop oil ingestion. We do tons of 2.7 and 3.5 Ecoboost engines and they both can ingest as much as 4-5 ounces of oil in 3,500 miles. We see this every day with all the F150 owners and most of them are bone stock with no mods at all.

The 2.3 engine does not have good ring seal from the factory as most of them will blow air out when you open the oil cap which is a sign of sloppy rings from day one. When we have engines built with proper ring seal and correct tolerances the oil cap will have a loud suction like a vacuum cleaner hose when you put your hand over the end.

Currently, our Ecoboost Mustang makes 800+ Horsepower and has run 9.46 E.T. at 144 MPH at 3600lbs on radials. We have experimented with every combination in stock form before mods all the way to having the fastest 2015 Mustang Ecoboost on the planet. This has been utilizing all the best manufacturers and LUND tuning to accomplish this.

I replied to this as the topic has gotten it's intended path to know the reality of the PCV and if a catch can is needed. Yes, the Ecoboost Mustang can and will benefit from a catch can and you will always have many people that disagree. The reason they disagree is because they think if the manufacturer didn't install it then it must not be needed. Or if Ford said the PCV is fixed that is the end all be all.

That's fine if that's what they think and they don't need a catch can. They can do what they want. But, you asked if a catch can is needed and I wanted to share a small response and it's not sales motivated. My response is if you want to take care of your car and be able to get the best out of it then the answer is yes.

The benefits will range from no tripping knock sensors, improved MPG, throttle response and a ton more life out of your spark plugs. Yes it will keep the valves and intake tract cleaner and help maintain the velocity of the airflow from being disrupted.

Lastly, OEM will not install catch cans because they require maintenance and store volatile fluids and gasses in them and have to be monitored on a regular basis. This is an even bigger obstacle to get Carb Exempt and EPA approval as we are in the process of trying to get carb exemption and they are very specific about why they don't want to approve them.

Other than that if you care about your vehicle be sure to get a properly functioning catch can and not one with a simple screen or sintered bronze filter like most in the marketplace.

Joe
 

ForYourOwnGood

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Also want to add that LSPI can be caused by oil and carbon build up, oil manufacturers are actively trying to create LSPI resistant oils since DI is becoming more and more popular for fuel economy.

LSPI is hardest on the rods and pistons in the motor. The rods tend to fail first, and the second ringland follows. This is exactly what we have seen in the MazdaSpeed DISI. Further, most people that lose their motors on the highway or have high knock events on the highway speak about a cloud of black smoke. This is also caused by an LSPI event. From the SAE paper 2011-01-0342:

“From exhaust emission and exhaust port air/fuel ratio measurements it was also recognized that a spike in HC emissions and a significant increase in Lambda (air/fuel ratio enrichment) was associated with LSPI”



Now why does this happen?

There are a number of factors but the biggest are:
– Carbon deposits on pistons and valves, oil fumes, poor quality fuel
– High loads at low RPM
– Valve overlap, EGR

All the causes are still not known. This is still a heavily researched area.
 
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lightNfast

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So now on to what kind to get... Looks like some CC options are Joe and Marvin's UPR, JLT, and Mishimoto.

Mish: bronze
https://www.mishimoto.com/compact-baffled-oil-catch-can-2-port.html

JLT: mesh
http://www.americanmuscle.com/jlt-oil-separator-v3-satin-1517eco.html

The UPR seems well designed utilizing both but is the most expensive. Is it overkill?http://www.uprproducts.com/mustang-billet-plug-n-play-catch-can-separator-ecoboost-15-sc.html

For those that have some of these set-ups or others, do you notice oil in the clean line coming from the can back to the intake?
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