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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

w3rkn

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Of course it is very different.

In the GT350 - Ford's Halo Performance Car - they *** KNEW*** that a a cooling package was needed for track work. And they deliberately left it off a the two most popular configuration (Base and Tech Pack), and even made it impossible to get it with the very popular Tech Pack config.

That is knowingly leaving off a cooling package that is required for enjoying a performance car on track.

The other examples you cited (vibration, stop sales, etc) are quality/design escapes, not previously known to the manufacture, and not deliberate.

Listen. There is no need to debate this as it relates to the GT350. Ford recognized its mistake and in 2017 made the minimum needed cooling package standard.

The *** only question *** in my mind is: Why are they doing it again with the PP2? Why leave the cooling package off, not offer it even as an option, and hide behind a statement in the owner's manual?

Makes no sense to me, particularly when the competition imposes no such drama on buyers.

I don't know why you are purposely trying to conflate two different things.

First off, Ford Performance did know, that is why the more expensive GT350R had a cooler. It was just a bad marketing decision to leave it off the rest of the Voodoo engines. Ford remedied that.

Secondly, what does the 2016 GT350 w/voodoo... have to do with the 2018 GT with a brand new Coyote ..?


Lastly, are you aware that Ford Performance races their engines on the weekends and there is a performance book full of parts...?
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ALUSA

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Of course it is very different.

In the GT350 - Ford's Halo Performance Car - they *** KNEW*** that a a cooling package was needed for track work. And they deliberately left it off a the two most popular configuration (Base and Tech Pack), and even made it impossible to get it with the very popular Tech Pack config.

That is knowingly leaving off a cooling package that is required for enjoying a performance car on track.

The other examples you cited (vibration, stop sales, etc) are quality/design escapes, not previously known to the manufacture, and not deliberate.

Listen. There is no need to debate this as it relates to the GT350. Ford recognized its mistake and in 2017 made the minimum needed cooling package standard.

The *** only question *** in my mind is: Why are they doing it again with the PP2? Why leave the cooling package off, not offer it even as an option, and hide behind a statement in the owner's manual?

Makes no sense to me, particularly when the competition imposes no such drama on buyers.
The answer is pretty simple. Ford is stating that if you really want a track car with warranty , buy a gt350 and spend more money! And continues, if you want a car that looks good and suitable for a track but its just for the show, buy the gt pp2, and hey you can still add coolers with the exception of warranty but we won’t stop you. That is exactly the game Ford is playing. Some people will still buy it. Its all about Ford banking money. Ford is selling enough mustangs that they are ok going this route. They really don’t give a damn.You should be asking why the customers keep buying it? Its all business!
 

Baron95

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The answer is pretty simple. Ford is stating that if you really want a track car with warranty , buy a gt350 and spend more money!
Really? Then why did they make coolers standard on the non-R regular GT350 in 2017+?

Everyone knows that they did it because of the huge blowback and negative publicity.
 

Baron95

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Lastly, are you aware that Ford Performance races their engines on the weekends and there is a performance book full of parts...?
What does racing have to do with this discussion?

The only place to safely and legally explore the standard Cup 2 tires and low splitter of the Mustang GT PP2 is a race track. It has nothing to do with racing. It is about a legal, safe, enjoyable HPDE/track_day, without being the laughing stock of the paddock because your car overheats or throw codes after 3 laps.

I get it that most people here care more about the colors and the wheel design and the dash, and they feel that putzing around on the street in Cup 2 tires and a splitter that scrapes everywhere is the coolest thing ever.

But some of us, actually want to know that the Mustang GT PP2 can handle a 20-30 min track day session without overheating out of the factory.

Just like a Camaro 1LE or BMW M2 or BRZ Performance Pack can.
 

ALUSA

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Really? Then why did they make coolers standard on the non-R regular GT350 in 2017+?

Everyone knows that they did it because of the huge blowback and negative publicity.
I am confused with your statement. Ford made the coolers standard on all gt350’s from 2017+! They made a mistake for not including one for the base models 2015 to 2016 if i remember right. That is why what i m telling you is, if you want a warrantied track mustang, you can get a gt350! They will not provide the cooling for the pp2 even for publicity in the future because for them, their track mustangs are only gt350’s! Track here i mean for road coarse ofcourse.
 

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w3rkn

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What does racing have to do with this discussion?

The only place to safely and legally explore the standard Cup 2 tires and low splitter of the Mustang GT PP2 is a race track. It has nothing to do with racing. It is about a legal, safe, enjoyable HPDE/track_day, without being the laughing stock of the paddock because your car overheats or throw codes after 3 laps.

I get it that most people here care more about the colors and the wheel design and the dash, and they feel that putzing around on the street in Cup 2 tires and a splitter that scrapes everywhere is the coolest thing ever.

But some of us, actually want to know that the Mustang GT PP2 can handle a 20-30 min track day session without overheating out of the factory.

Just like a Camaro 1LE or BMW M2 or BRZ Performance Pack can.

:frusty:

If you want to know all of this^, then why are you not watching Ford Racing on the weekend, or following their development & work..? I regularly see Watson Engineering picking up S550s from the plant. Ford knows what these engines do and what it takes. They also have a CATALOG for things (oil coolers) such as you are asking for...!

The GT350 thing, was a marketing blunder, not because ford didn't know. And they fixed that marketing blunder by giving all GT350 coolers.


Ford knows all the thermal dynamic of these engines. They know exactly what they are doing. It is a matter of perspective... and if my 2018 PP2 doesn't come with an oil cooler, I will $pend money and distress my engine.

And... most likely it will be done under warranty at the dealer. My bill.




Lastly, new engine and two new transmission options and all you can think is about how badly they are overheating..? :gossip:
 

Baron95

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Lastly, new engine and two new transmission options and all you can think is about how badly they are overheating..? :gossip:
The revised S550 is awesome. Great design, interior, improved engine with PI and DI, transmissions are probably great too.

The PP2 also seems just the ticket for me, though I'm not sure why they didn't keep a square setup for the wheels.

But...

All that will be for naught if the car overheats and throw codes on a 30 min HPDE track session.

That is exactly the point. Why build something that is so close to perfection, and leave out $500 worth of coolers to take the overheating worry out?

I'm still hoping that overheating will not be an issue, and that the notation on the owner's manual is just out of an abundance of caution on Ford's part.
 

w3rkn

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The revised S550 is awesome. Great design, interior, improved engine with PI and DI, transmissions are probably great too.

The PP2 also seems just the ticket for me, though I'm not sure why they didn't keep a square setup for the wheels.

But...

All that will be for naught if the car overheats and throw codes on a 30 min HPDE track session.

That is exactly the point. Why build something that is so close to perfection, and leave out $500 worth of coolers to take the overheating worry out?

I'm still hoping that overheating will not be an issue, and that the notation on the owner's manual is just out of an abundance of caution on Ford's part.

I guess you are young, and have no clue about marketing and insurance ratings, etc.

Obviously, if you need it for tracking your Mustang, then get one. Not everyone who buys a Mustang PP2, or a BMW M240i track their cars. Anyone who does, already knows what they need. It is available.


Are you also mad, that the PP2 might not come with a helmet too ..?
 

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I guess you are young, and have no clue about marketing and insurance ratings, etc.

Obviously, if you need it for tracking your Mustang, then get one. Not everyone who buys a Mustang PP2, or a BMW M240i track their cars. Anyone who does, already knows what they need. It is available.


Are you also mad, that the PP2 might not come with a helmet too ..?
Anyone who gets a PP2 and doesn't track their car will be completely missing the point and wasting money on Sport Cup 2s. The PP2 package should come with coolers worthy of a track, otherwise it is pointless. It's a shame because as Baron said, it's so close to being just right.

The helmet comment doesn't make any sense in this discussion
 

w3rkn

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Anyone who gets a PP2 and doesn't track their car will be completely missing the point and wasting money on Sport Cup 2s. The PP2 package should come with coolers worthy of a track, otherwise it is pointless. It's a shame because as Baron said, it's so close to being just right.

The helmet comment doesn't make any sense in this discussion

What about those who do not get the PP2, but still track their car..?

How is the PP2 any different from that situation. I understand his point and acknowledged it, but I also added the point that it is no big deal... you can add one from ford's own performance book, yourself.

No need to continue to cry about it, if it doesn't come with one.


Lastly, You also can't do autocross, or track events without a helmet, why isn't he ranting & raving, that the PP2 doesn't come with one..? Why cry about it, when ford offers one aftermarket.
 

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cosmo

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What about those who do not get the PP2, but still track their car..?

How is the PP2 any different from that situation. I understand his point and acknowledged it, but I also added the point that it is no big deal... you can add one from ford's own performance book, yourself.

No need to continue to cry about it, if it doesn't come with one.


Lastly, You also can't do autocross, or track events without a helmet, why isn't he ranting & raving, that the PP2 doesn't come with one..? Why cry about it, when ford offers one aftermarket.
Can you please show me the MT82 coolers in the Ford Performance catalog? I couldn't find them, only for the Tremec in the 350.

EDIT: Also, a direct competitor doesn't offer a helmet standard on their car. That's the biggest issue. If EVERYONE had to pay for additional coolers when the vehicles are within 1k of eachother, that's one thing. When a direct competitor offers them but you don't? That's lame.
 

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Lastly, You also can't do autocross, or track events without a helmet, why isn't he ranting & raving, that the PP2 doesn't come with one..? Why cry about it, when ford offers one aftermarket.
What are they gonna do, offer a one size fits all helmet? Great idea!
 

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Anyone who gets a PP2 and doesn't track their car will be completely missing the point
This is a interesting point. When I purchased my 2015 I didn't even know the package was offered let alone the car I just purchased had it included. Sad, I know. But to your point, I have it and yet to track my car. It is on my to-do list next year for sure but 2 or 3 years into it now and it hasn't seen any track. So technically I can fit into your comment about completely missing it or being a waste.

I do like the Recaro's and it handles very well (in my opinion). And more than enough speed in it. Oh, and after replacing the tires with the Firehawks it is really a joy to drive that much more regardless of weather conditions.
 

Baron95

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The standard performance package (PP1) and PP2 are completely different animals.

The PP1 is a worthy improvement for street, spirited driving, autocross, etc, with nearly zero downside.

The PP2 on the other hand has a lot of downsides. The Cup 2 tires are horrible in rain, even dangerous. They are not good in cold temperatures. And they offer zero benefit until they are warmed up after a full lap or so on track. It is not good for autocross, as it won't get up to temp before the autocross run is over.

Similarly the low spoiler and reduced ride height will cause it to scrape everywhere.

In other words, the PP2 comes with a lot of downsides, and is ONLY a benefit if you track the car. Therefore most owners that spec it will track it.



The helmet comments are ridiculous, since that is a personal wear item, and is not attached to the vehicle, and adding one to your head does not void the warranty, or give Ford an excuse to deny warranty coverage.


It is is so ridiculous to see people defending leaving coolers out of the PP2, when all the competitors (BMW M2, 1LE, etc have them).
 

ALUSA

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Nobody is defending the PP2! Everyone understands tracking PP2 means losing performance due to overheating! People will still buy it and add coolers if they want to track it without sacrificing performance, but they are also taking the risk of voiding a warranty. Why Ford is going this route? Who knows! Maybe lowering the costs, avoiding adding more weight to an already heavy car or they don’t want a gt to surpass their gt350 on the track. Otherwise logically it doesn’t make sense does it? We are talking about engineers and researchers who knows what they are doing!
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