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Gt 5.0 vs 2017 Camaro 1LE

Mountain376

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Stop comparing the 6G GTPP to the 6G SS 1LE. The 6G SS is the more equivalent to the 6G GTPP. The SS 1LE is closer to a GT350.
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thePill

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You don't suppose that Cadillac customers might be a bit fussier about NVH now, do you? It's quite possible to add reinforcement that chases vibration modes off to locations/frequencies that are less annoying without adding much to the overall chassis stiffness.

Where would the Camaros be weightwise with respect to EPA weight breaks, with vs without these panels? Don't underestimate the pressure to end up at the top of the next lower weight category rather than at the bottom of a category you didn't try hard enough to get out of.

Perhaps Car and Driver should run a Camaro and a Mustang on the K&C rig that they ran an S197 on a few years back.


Norm
In response to this:

Yes Norm, I do... however, NVH and rigidity go hand in hand.

Now that we've determined that a lot of metal was removed, have you examined the front section?

That is another area the Camaro falls behind. Everyone else uses modular designs. Don't get me wrong, this is typically fine for smaller cash s with smaller engines but, the Camaro didn't change the cradle at all :(

It is of very poor design.
 

68fbjjz109

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In response to this:

Yes Norm, I do... however, NVH and rigidity go hand in hand.

Now that we've determined that a lot of metal was removed, have you examined the front section?

That is another area the Camaro falls behind. Everyone else uses modular designs. Don't get me wrong, this is typically fine for smaller cash s with smaller engines but, the Camaro didn't change the cradle at all :(

It is of very poor design.
Please stop. "Now that we have determined" Who is we. Because the ME community in the auto industry has alot of positive things to say about the Camaro.

You haven't proved or validated anything regarding the Camaro's body structure.

NVH performance in certain frequencies and body structure integration do go hand in hand, however literally every aspect of a vehicle effects it. And rigidity can't get you everything, or be weight efficient at times.

The front rails structure on the alpha platform in general has alot of good design features, and a tall section height.

The cradle is unique to the Camaro, while similar in strategy to the ATS/CTS it is different in every way.

On top of that, the V8 uses an much larger integrated sheer plate.

If you want to create a new thread to discuss just Camaro structure, considerations, and theories, that would probable be better the community as a whole. Heck we can go section by section and discuss it's advantages and disadvantages against the Mustang.
 

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Please stop. "Now that we have determined" Who is we. Because the ME community in the auto industry has alot of positive things to say about the Camaro.

You haven't proved or validated anything regarding the Camaro's body structure.

NVH performance in certain frequencies and body structure integration do go hand in hand, however literally every aspect of a vehicle effects it. And rigidity can't get you everything, or be weight efficient at times.

The front rails structure on the alpha platform in general has alot of good design features, and a tall section height.

The cradle is unique to the Camaro, while similar in strategy to the ATS/CTS it is different in every way.

On top of that, the V8 uses an much larger integrated sheer plate.

If you want to create a new thread to discuss just Camaro structure, considerations, and theories, that would probable be better the community as a whole. Heck we can go section by section and discuss it's advantages and disadvantages against the Mustang.
You're arguing with a brick wall. He has no interest in an actual discussion.

Also, if you're wondering about his use of "we" or "thePill" (third person) to describe himself, look up illeism and nosism.

The current Camaro platform is perfectly fine. The car wouldn't be able to pull 1g in certain configurations and run the times it can if it was as much of a limp noodle as he would want you to believe.

That being said, the Mustang is a fantastic platform as well. And it's about to get even better with the upgrades. Hopefully they'll revise the PP as well in this refresh.
 

kz

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Btw - since the forum troll used to bring up SCCA autocross classing / results here (why fail to even remotely understand them), I'm sure he's happy to see that on first Pro Solo this year 1/LE did pretty well. In AS. With Corvettes. Completely different place that Mustangs in FS.
 

thePill

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It appears the 1LE SS is the only model with proper reinforcement, nearly 85 additional pounds from the ZL1 and convertible were used on the platform.

This was the metal the SS lost but desperately needs. thePill has proven his point with the only two pics released of the naked 6th Gen. As you can see, there is very little difference between the GT, SS and and old 1LE in FS. That's why they put it there, the times in testing were similar.

FS is the Camaro's only stronghold and with more power, it was difficult to change that... enter the 2018. Bottom line? The 1LE has been classed with competition it doesn't belong with. It doing well isn't the slaughter we had heard so much about.

Yeah... the absolute best Camaro has to offer does "Very Well".

I'm happy the Mustang will finally take FS with little effort.
 

thePill

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Please stop. "Now that we have determined" Who is we. Because the ME community in the auto industry has alot of positive things to say about the Camaro.

You haven't proved or validated anything regarding the Camaro's body structure.

NVH performance in certain frequencies and body structure integration do go hand in hand, however literally every aspect of a vehicle effects it. And rigidity can't get you everything, or be weight efficient at times.

The front rails structure on the alpha platform in general has alot of good design features, and a tall section height.

The cradle is unique to the Camaro, while similar in strategy to the ATS/CTS it is different in every way.

On top of that, the V8 uses an much larger integrated sheer plate.

If you want to create a new thread to discuss just Camaro structure, considerations, and theories, that would probable be better the community as a whole. Heck we can go section by section and discuss it's advantages and disadvantages against the Mustang.
Yes, we have determined that the S550 and 6th Gen are nothing alike.

I mentioned the B-C Pillar and you seemed to think the platforms were identical. You missed the entire front section? The ATS/Camaro's engine cradle simply mounts to the A-Pillar/Torque box :lol: didn't you notice that?

Sorry bud, you should have picked up on that. That is where the strut towers mount and the S550 is of modular, one piece design.

Simply put, you remember I joked about the Camaro still being a Sedan? Well? You can literally still see the rear door opening on the Camaro :lol:

That is the funniest thing I have EVER seen! Regardless, you should have instantly question the differences between the S550 and Alpha cars. There are not even close... the S550 is a compact, 2 door tank. The Camaro is a shortened Sedan (CTS) that tried to save weight by using the ATS's cradle (V6 car) and not filling in the rear door area.



:lol:


I don't care how it does in racing, it certainly needs a cage.
 

thePill

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You haven't proved or validated anything regarding the Camaro's body structure.

NVH performance in certain frequencies and body structure integration do go hand in hand.

The front rails structure on the alpha platform in general has alot of good design features, and a tall section height.

The cradle is unique to the Camaro, while similar in strategy to the ATS/CTS it is different in every way.

On top of that, the V8 uses an much larger integrated sheer plate.
Please understand, the design used on the Camaro6's engine cradle is that of a V6, simply widened. Don't listen to the media, they can be fooled with extra power quite easily.

It is clear just by observation that the ATS/Camaro's engine cradle is a little weak. Look at what the ATS-V did in that area... additional support. Yet the base SS removes all the critical structure that the ATS got up front and all the coupes metal in between the B-C pillars? Then they reduced the tire, reduced the brake, added more power at the same weight with a longer wheelbase. All built on the CTS's shrunken architecture that STILL shows where the rear doors were at...

Why does this cost more? Why include the CTS's sheer plate when they removed the ATS-V/Coupes V Brace for the cradle arms? Why didn't they beef up the sled runners?

Like I said, this design doesn't deserve 400hp behind it. The S197 was in fact a more rigid platform. Chevy would need to provide the torsional numbers before I believe any different. Even the smaller ATS was 3000-5000lbs under the S550... the '15 Mustang rivals the very short 991 911 in rigidity 30,000-32,000-ish depending on level.

Even at first glance you can tell the HUGE differences between S550 and Camaro6. Most of those differences are between the B-C Pillars (the torsional cross road) and the engine cradle/strut tower support. The Mustang is obviously an integrated modular design while the Camaro uses a scaled down and pieced together Sedan. The missing metal between the pillars and cradle was merely adopted in sub-par, sub-frame work like the 11 connector sets and the CTS's sheet plate... the S550 still has those parts, they are just integrating that into the inner structure (a lot in which is missing on the SS Camaro). The 1LE adopted the ZL1/Vert reinforcement and that is why they missed weight by 100lbs.

Some of that reinforcement was simply removed for the ZL1LE.

When sales get as low as thePill predicted, they axed the z28 (reported here) and merged the 1LE and ZL1 programs together (reported here). The ZL1 and 1LE essentially became the same car... nothing on a ZL1LE is on the SS 1LE package so... what exactly makes it a 1LE? Track capability? I thought the SS and ZL1 already were capable? A huge issue with marketing right? Wrong... it is internal panic to the Hellcat2 and '18 GT500.

Regardless what anyone believes, a 1LE is only equivalent to the GT. Although it has better equipment, all that is mitigated in Motorsport. As we see, ALL Camaro's require some major waivers in order to compete. The GT350 is an absolute animal, so insane that they introduced the CPC version because why inherit restrictions when they don't help the Camaro beat the 350?

As far as anyone is concerned, the 1LE is about the ONLY thing that has gone almost right for the 6th Gen. The weight was necessary and the Low MSRP drove the ZL1's MSRP up (ZL1 was the best selling HALO Pony) and it will never grab a crowd like the GT350 nor put an entire class to bed like in IMSA (RIP Factory Racing).
 

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It appears the 1LE SS is the only model with proper reinforcement, nearly 85 additional pounds from the ZL1 and convertible were used on the platform.

This was the metal the SS lost but desperately needs. thePill has proven his point with the only two pics released of the naked 6th Gen. As you can see, there is very little difference between the GT, SS and and old 1LE in FS. That's why they put it there, the times in testing were similar.

FS is the Camaro's only stronghold and with more power, it was difficult to change that... enter the 2018. Bottom line? The 1LE has been classed with competition it doesn't belong with. It doing well isn't the slaughter we had heard so much about.

Yeah... the absolute best Camaro has to offer does "Very Well".

I'm happy the Mustang will finally take FS with little effort.
Do you even read to find out facts???:crazy: how many times do people have to show you there is no 85lbs of support added to the 1le.:headbonk:
 

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Btw - since the forum troll used to bring up SCCA autocross classing / results here (why fail to even remotely understand them), I'm sure he's happy to see that on first Pro Solo this year 1/LE did pretty well. In AS. With Corvettes. Completely different place that Mustangs in FS.
Careful. If you anger him enough he'll go from making crap up to PMing you shirtless pics and telling you he'll send pictures of his D.

Ask me how I know...
 

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Do you even read to find out facts???:crazy: how many times do people have to show you there is no 85lbs of support added to the 1le.:headbonk:
I'm only basing curb weight estimates from Chevys OWN predictions. Just as the ZL1LE dropped weight over the ZL1, the same exact methods were initially intend s for the SS 1LE as well. As you can see, the Camaro was designed to either drop up to 100lbs in V8 trim OR, patch the entire car together with Sub-frame support. That IS the facts...

Unless they are specific about WHERE the weight came from and it needs to be feasible. Look at what the GT350R needed to do in order to drop weight from the base 350. How is it possible the ZL1LE can drop records amount of weight without any real work?

Well, as thePill illustrated and Chevy is so afraid to publish IS the fact that the platform IS NOT suitable for a V8. As you can see by the profile pic released, Chevy used the V6 cradle for on the ATS while reinforcement from the CTS was cherry picked. Know how many of these parts were specifically designed for the Camaro? All the sub-frame work...

Aside from the front, the issue between the B and C pillars is just unheard of. Seriously, go seek out another Sports Coupe/Car or Family Sedan that has removed large portions of the inner structure. You can find some from the 90's...
 

thePill

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Do you even read to find out facts???:crazy: how many times do people have to show you there is no 85lbs of support added to the 1le.:headbonk:
I'll leave it like this...

Chevy removed this flexible 100lbs from the SS, remember? Right out from under me :lol:

thePill also warned you that this weight would return and soon. Initially, the SS would have been right where we had placed it before, 3780-3820lbs. However, the weight loss that was originally intended for the 2017 SS 1LE is what the SS became... 3670lbs. That is where Chevy had the 2017 1LE's curb weight at.

The SS got the delete kit and the actual production 1LE was made to put most of that 100lbs back on. They also downsized the brakes to 13.6/13.3, I reported that here first.

Fast forward to the ZL1LE and the same exact reinforcement that went into the 1LE came out of the ZL1LE.


thePill was honest, the SS was headed for 3800lbs BUT, he couldn't have predicted some of the m assures they approved.

The 2017 1LE was what the 2016 SS was suppose to have been.

The commentary thePill provided on this subject has been pretty accurate. We will never see any technical data on the platform and Chevy is careful with the pics.
 

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Here is a video of the bad handeling Alpha chassis.:doh:

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