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Official: 2018 Ford Mustang Refresh Detailed! (Options/Features, Specs, Photos, Info)

MRGTX

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Yeah, with the new 2019 Camaro spy shots, articles are talking about it getting more power too. This is why before I wasn't expecting more than 465 from the Mustang, but now I believe some of the rumors that it could be 470+ so as to not be immediately outgunned by the Camaro again.
Is 470 asking a lot from a naturally aspirated 5.0L engine? Obviously, the NA 100hp/Liter has been done before (see: Honda S2k, older BMW M3, etc) but I suspect this becomes more difficult as displacement and output increase due to proportionate friction and thermal efficiency losses.

The 5.2L Voodoo can do it but it revs half way to the damn moon to get there while the torque output and the low end output impress nobody.

It's interesting how the 5.0L V8 engine became a standard for good power and good balance (thanks to modest rotating mass, reasonably short stroke) but we're hitting a wall here in terms of NA power. Yes, the extra compression that is possible through DI is going to help a lot...but the 6.2L folks across town are already doing that. The hardware and software are in place...How much have they left on the table in terms of upping the compression? :shrug:

Also, in an era where a modular/quad overhead cam engine takes up as much space as a big block Chebby from 50 years ago, the measly 302 cubic inches seems kinda pathetic. I recall that Ford went back to the 5.0L because of the heritage of this displacement but also because it could be done with existing tooling from other modular engine models.

Will Ford invest in an all new, bigger displacement-capable block? Unlikely. I think Ford will cede NA V8 victory to GM and focus on the EcoBoom technology.

"Goes to show that nothing shrinks time and distance like cubic inches and a good induction system." —1969 Plymouth advertisement
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TomcatDriver

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I don't know. European brands have been coaxing well over 100hp/liter for a while, albeit relying on super-high redlines to get there. The Ferrari 458 gets 570hp out of a 4.5L V8, although torque is just under 400 ft/lb. Your first reaction may be to say it is absurd to compare a Ford to Ferrari, but 10 years ago one would probably say it was absurd to get 435 hp (soon to be more) out of a 5.0L smallblock Ford from the factory. There is still room in the NA, but you are probably right, it will be easier to get the performance gains by going to forced induction or even hybrid solutions than to try to mass produce a 9000 rpm bomb like Ferrari.
 

MRGTX

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I don't know. European brands have been coaxing well over 100hp/liter for a while, albeit relying on super-high redlines to get there. The Ferrari 458 gets 570hp out of a 4.5L V8, although torque is just under 400 ft/lb. Your first reaction may be to say it is absurd to compare a Ford to Ferrari, but 10 years ago one would probably say it was absurd to get 435 hp (soon to be more) out of a 5.0L smallblock Ford from the factory. There is still room in the NA, but you are probably right, it will be easier to get the performance gains by going to forced induction or even hybrid solutions than to try to mass produce a 9000 rpm bomb like Ferrari.
Good point. Exotics have been doing the high specific NA output thing for a while...but let's consider the maintenance cycle of the Ferrari 458's engine for just a moment. Who's ready for a full 10,000km engine teardown?
:lol:

Still, your point stands. With the passage of time and Ford's impressive R&D capabilities...I suppose it is possible. I hope they do it.

Still, there are diminishing returns as increasing RPM are necessary to make more and more NA power at a given displacement/compression as this results in ever increasing frictional losses and probably fluid dynamic flow limitations. At some point it's easier just to bore out the damn cylinder or boost. :shrug:
 

Pablo GT350

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there is another 5.0 V8 DI/PI engine on the market, the Lexus RCF/GSF engine, which makes 467 hp with 12.3:1 CR (versus 12.0:1 for the 18GT). Not only that it gains 35rwhp from an exhaust because factory is so neutered

470hp+ for the 18GT is not out of the question

Even more theory crafting is the 270hp 3.5 V6 camry engine vs 306hp lexus IS350 engine. Same block, but the IS350 has DI/PI heads adding 13% power to make it 306. Just applying this % to a Coyote yields 490hp. Which isnt that far off from the RCF/GSF engine with freed up exhaust. Also remember the 15+ GT doesnt gain much from an aftermarket exhaust, breathes fine already
470hp is definitely doable
 

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If Ford can get 400 HP & 400 TQ out of a 3.0 EB I'm sure they can squeeze close to
500 HP out of a DI NA 5.0.
 

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So, do you guys think Ford will include the "Performance Package" into the base 2018 GT and increase the price a bit?
 

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So, do you guys think Ford will include the "Performance Package" into the base 2018 GT and increase the price a bit?
My guess would be no. There are those who would prefer the softer ride of the non-PP. We're still mostly in the dark, but the press releases do say "On all models, new shock absorbers make for better ride control, a new cross-axis joint in the rear suspension leads to increased lateral stiffness, and innovative stabilizer bars bring sharper response and handling."

So my guess is that Ford has addressed some of the chassis/suspension complaints of the 15-17 (wheel hop?) in the base, but the base will probably be softer than the PP. The PP (hopefully) will be comparable to the 1LE complete with magnaride, but that might be PP2.
 

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If Ford can get 400 HP & 400 TQ out of a 3.0 EB I'm sure they can squeeze close to
500 HP out of a DI NA 5.0.
Can you explain or are you just spitballing? I don't think you can make that assumption but I'm not an engineer...

Of course it CAN be done but so far, this has been $100k+ Cars only. Someone with a calculator and some free time could tell us what compression/RPM/thermal efficiency you would need...from there we could guess about how feasible this really is for a mass production car in 2018.

Keep in mind that higher revs means more waste energy...which means poorer fuel economy. The EPA requirements don't favor the kind of NA engine that you'd need to make that peak power. And while a 10spd transmission would help, engines set up to run like this will need to be revved a lot more than lower RPM peak power motors, TiVCT or not.
 

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My guess would be no. There are those who would prefer the softer ride of the non-PP. We're still mostly in the dark, but the press releases do say "On all models, new shock absorbers make for better ride control, a new cross-axis joint in the rear suspension leads to increased lateral stiffness, and innovative stabilizer bars bring sharper response and handling."

So my guess is that Ford has addressed some of the chassis/suspension complaints of the 15-17 (wheel hop?) in the base, but the base will probably be softer than the PP. The PP (hopefully) will be comparable to the 1LE complete with magnaride, but that might be PP2.
You have excellent points and I also think PP1 might already be part of base and PP2 could be "extra" for track.
 

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This was a very informative video coming directly from top Ford Engineer. Nothing specific but he mentioned 0-60's in the 4's and more horsepower and torque and nothing above 500. He laughed at that thought, so it's more likely a 20-30 hp bump. Better aerodynamics, active exhaust, magna rides, better power delivering transmission, and a smooth automatic that will get out of the hole quicker with deeper gears.

The engine itself could likely do 500+, but as he mentioned, they had in mind to keep the vehicle affordable for everyone. Would likely need to tune up the chassis, axles, differentials, and so fourth to safely support it $$$.

I would love to pick his brain of every little detail after all the goodies are released.
 

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You have excellent points and I also think PP1 might already be part of base and PP2 could be "extra" for track.
No way they'll do that. Having PP on the base model would raise the price by 3K. And besides a lot of people don't like the stifness of the PP.
 

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No way they'll do that. Having PP on the base model would raise the price by 3K. And besides a lot of people don't like the stifness of the PP.
If I was guessing (and I am, just like everyone else) I would guess that PP1 is comparable to the current PP, maybe a little cheaper, maybe a little less "stuff" and PP2 is your magnaride. However one of the press releases said that magnaride would be an option on PP cars, so maybe it is something completely separate.

Again, hoping the 1LE is the target, which is $6500 from a base Camaro (just under 44K) and includes magnaride, 285/305/20s, HUD, Reccaros plus standard suspension and trim upgrades. With the almost $5K lower base Mustang GT MSRP that would come in just under $40 (which is wishful thinking). I would guess a couple K under the 1LE.
 

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Can you explain or are you just spitballing? I don't think you can make that assumption but I'm not an engineer...

Of course it CAN be done but so far, this has been $100k+ Cars only. Someone with a calculator and some free time could tell us what compression/RPM/thermal efficiency you would need...from there we could guess about how feasible this really is for a mass production car in 2018.

Keep in mind that higher revs means more waste energy...which means poorer fuel economy. The EPA requirements don't favor the kind of NA engine that you'd need to make that peak power. And while a 10spd transmission would help, engines set up to run like this will need to be revved a lot more than lower RPM peak power motors, TiVCT or not.
I'm no drive-train engineer but I have confidence that Ford can do what I stated in my earlier post.
 

bluebeastsrt

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I'm no drive-train engineer but I have confidence that Ford can do what I stated in my earlier post.
I'm with you it can be done. You'd need a better intake. Factory installed long tube headers. A lot of engine tuning. Nothing exotic.
 

Kevin08

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If I was guessing (and I am, just like everyone else) I would guess that PP1 is comparable to the current PP, maybe a little cheaper, maybe a little less "stuff" and PP2 is your magnaride. However one of the press releases said that magnaride would be an option on PP cars, so maybe it is something completely separate.
If I recall correctly, in the details during the release earlier in the year they said that the base suspension was more or less the current PP suspension.

Actually - yes, second bullet point on the first page of this thread:
All models get revised shocks, increased lateral stiffness, and revised stabilizer bars (base suspension improvements said to be on par with the previous optional performance suspension)
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