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BMR Jacking rails vs Steeda jacking rails

Epiphany

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I like to disassemble things.
You want to spread the jack stand locations out as far as possible and reduce cantilever - plain and simple.
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tj@steeda

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Thanks for the feedback, E.

We have sold many, many of these units & countless positive reviews on Mustang 6G & our distributor's websites ... one would think we would have seen/heard about cantilever - I'll have to keep my eye out for that first review on the subject.

We found that right length needed to support the vehicle safely, as proved by our image in the instructions with two people sitting in the trunk of the car.

Additionally, we designed the Steeda jacking rails to work in conjunction with our IRS Subframe Support Braces!

Best Regards,

TJ
 

EF300

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Hope that helps. Here are some comparisons.
Thanks man I'm going to get my order in tonight for the low profile rail since my car has lowering springs. I just need to get my damn kids asleep they ate like two pounds of candy each
 

Epiphany

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Thanks for the feedback, E.

We have sold many, many of these units & countless positive reviews on Mustang 6G & our distributor's websites ... one would think we would have seen/heard about cantilever - I'll have to keep my eye out for that first review on the subject.

We found that right length needed to support the vehicle safely, as proved by our image in the instructions with two people sitting in the trunk of the car.
Regarding the bolding TJ, I'll jump on that grenade.:)

First, some math to determine the Center of Balance of a typical S550 GT350. I pulled some real world, scaled weight numbers from Terry at Vorshlag. He weighed in a barren GT350 (with a full tank of gas) at 3,798lbs. He weighed each corner simultaneously. Front axle weight came in at 2,040lbs and the rear axle at 1,758lbs. I then went out and took some dimensions from my own GT350. Front of the vehicle to the front axle centerline comes in at ~34". Front of the vehicle to the rear axle centerline comes in at 141.1" (S550 wheelbase is 107.1").

Total Moment calculation from the above data:

(2040 x 34) + (1758 x 141.1) = TM
(69,360) + (248,053.8) = 317,413.8

Moment divided by Gross Weight = CB

317,413.8/3798 = 83.57"

Measuring from the front of the car towards the rear, 83.5" gives you the center of balance on a GT350 with a tank of gas. I did just that on my own car and used masking tape to indicate as such. I also added blue painter's tape to show where the rails I have on my own car (BMR lightweight units) start and stop. The tape edge closest to the front of the car is where the rails begin and the tape edge closest to the rear of the car is where they terminate.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz%20center%20of%20balance.jpg




I then pulled the photo from Steeda showing jackstand locations on Steeda's rails and placed one photo atop the other for comparison.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz%20center%20of%20balance%20combined.jpg



The stands are placed pretty accurately with respect to the center of balance. That is not a point of contention. What I have issue with is the spacing relative to that center of balance and how the load, in this case a car, is distributed or stabilized. The higher the center of gravity of the load (or vehicle) over the plane it rests on the wider and more stable the base of support is needed to maintain static equilibrium. In the case of a typical Mustang and in the context of what I'm talking about it is probably safe to say they aren't overly tall. But if the vehicle is supported near its center of balance the vehicle will be easier to rotate the about that point. The stands can become a pivot or fulcrum point and therein lies a potentially dangerous scenario. In a perfect would where everything is always static you should have little to worry about. In reality, it isn't always so perfect. So a major shift in weight distribution such as if driveline or engine components are removed, wheels/tires are on/off in the front or back, could indeed be a problem. A moment of force on the more cantilevered end could indeed knock the car off it's respected stands. The closer the stands are to one another the greater the leverage gain at either end of the car, particularly the rear in this example.

A manufacturer cannot control these dynamic, real world variables. And sadly, typical litigation would raise the question...what did the manufacturer do to minimize risk and how well did they understand the potential for failure?


116758d1447947240-steeda-chassis-jacking-rails-img_0426.jpg



My apologies in advance TJ, as I tend to view things in a worst case scenario - first. I've seen any number or equipment failures that have led to injury. More often than not, user error or ignorance was the direct or root cause. In the case of working on or directly under a vehicle sitting elevated upon jackstands, I want the widest footprint possible. And since we are limited to the area of the pinchweld between the wheels, that means we need to take advantage of what length remains. That is all.
 
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EF300

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Thanks BMR, I put in an order for the low profile set from American Muscle. Low is the way to go with my 30 series tires and FP lowering springs :cheers:
 

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tj@steeda

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Hello E,

Thank you for your feedback.

At Steeda, we have over 28 years in designing, engineering & manufacturing parts under ISO 9001:2008 conditions - we have some of the best engineers on staff.

All of your calculations are sound, but let me offer additional insight to the discussion.

In the image that you posted, we showed two gentlemen with a combined weight of approximately 400 lbs. (although, I think Scott said he was lighter, lol). So it begs the question: How much weight can be added to the front/rear of the vehicle before it is unsafe?

Well the answer to that is simple to calculate. Expanding upon your moment calculations, we solve for an unknown force at the front/rear using the corresponding jack stand as the fulcrum. Using all of the same values you used (to stay consistent), adding in a few other measurements and assumptions (additional lengths and jack stand positions), and crunching the numbers, you get that you would have to add 1168 lbs. to the front or 684 lbs. to the rear in order for your S550 Mustang to begin to pivot.

So where we sat the gentlemen that weighed 400 lbs. you could almost add 300 lbs. more and still be good. For reference, the Coyote engine weighs 421 lbs. and the Voodoo engine weighs 408 lbs. Speaking of which, you raised the concern of a shift in weight distribution leading to a problem. We took the liberty of putting your mind at ease.

If the engine were to be removed, you would have to add 1370 lbs. to the front or 351 lbs. to the rear in order for it to pivot. And these weights are assumed to be at the farthest point either fore (for the front of the vehicle) or aft (for the rear of the vehicle) from your fulcrum, giving the longest lever arm which results in the largest moment.

Here are some high hard ones:

We have sold thousands of these jacking rails without issue

We made our jacking rails in order to save weight, but still maintain a safe jacking point (proven above).

The jacking rails are just that - JACKING rails. In most cases, people do not put the jack stands along the rails and instead elect to position them along the subframes both front and rear, as well as on our patented Steeda IRS Support Braces which conveniently comes with a jack standpoint that actually sits further back than any jacking rail.

I want to reiterate, we are very confident in our design & engineering accross the board - we have some of the most talented engineers on staff to churn out the highest quality parts for some of the highest HP Mustangs - that is the Steeda Difference!

Best Regards,

TJ
 

EF300

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Ok I got the BMR low profile rails in and my only complaint is why the hell didn't I do this earlier. It is so much easier and so much SAFER to jack up the S550, especially b/c my car is lowered and on 30 series rubber.

Jacking up the car on the stock pinch weld is sketchy at best especially b/c if your jack slips you are gonna rip off your rocker trim.

These things are fantastic and the build quality is excellent. Life is sooo much easier.

Thanks BMR :cheers:
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Epiphany

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Expanding upon your moment calculations, we solve for an unknown force at the front/rear using the corresponding jack stand as the fulcrum. Using all of the same values you used (to stay consistent), adding in a few other measurements and assumptions (additional lengths and jack stand positions), and crunching the numbers, you get that you would have to add 1168 lbs. to the front or 684 lbs. to the rear in order for your S550 Mustang to begin to pivot.

...The jacking rails are just that - JACKING rails. In most cases, people do not put the jack stands along the rails and instead elect to position them along the subframes both front and rear, as well as on our patented Steeda IRS Support Braces which conveniently comes with a jack standpoint that actually sits further back than any jacking rail.
TJ, what were the pivot (or stand) dimensions that you used in your math? And how far apart from each other? My guess would be that your calcs assume the widest stance possible with your rails.

I hear what you are saying about what people use the them for - generally. Yet plenty of people put their cars up on four stands that use the extreme rail ends as it closely mimics the factory recommended support and lift locations. Liability, as much as I hate that word and the implied baggage it brings with it, is always the concern and any recommendation which deviates from the manufacturers recommendation can make things very costly.

I mentioned earlier about witnessing a number of situations where machinery or equipment failed that led to injury. In some cases, poor judgement was no doubt a contributor. I've learned to see things in terms of their potential to cause harm and to evaluate them in how well they mitigate risk. The higher the factor of safety, the better.

Quick story. I was out driving my GT500 a few years ago and ran into a guy with a well done '12 GT. We talked for a while as we looked over each other's car. He mentioned being a local deputy sheriff when I asked what he did. He asked who did the work on my car and I told him that I do all of it. He asked if I had a lift, which I normally wouldn't see as odd but there was something behind his asking - I could just tell. Anyway, that night while online I googled his name to see if he was indeed a local deputy. He was entirely truthful. But what I found was an article where he got a call and tried to save a man's life that had been crushed under the car he was working on.

http://www.niagara-gazette.com/news...cle_5aaff56e-80c9-5b69-bc68-94d7aba6a1fb.html

I didn't see him or talk to him after that. A year ago I get a knock on the door from a deputy that was sent to interview me as part of my pistol permit application (I'm glad it was somebody that knew me as it can be difficult getting one in NY). It was him. We talked for a bit and I told him that I found out about the call he got. It was eerie hearing him talk about it as he sounded a bit like me after seeing something similar. You never forget things like this. Therein lies my concern about caution and safety factor.
 

NvrFinished

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These are first generation (I think) Steeda jacking rails. I can't count how many times the car has been up on these. No stability issues what so ever. The Esco 3-ton jack stands make a difference as well.
esco-best-jack-stands-pinch-weld.jpg
 

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You guys are great at math. And I like a good internet battle. :) But I think the real problem is on an uneven surface, like at the track or my driveway or pretty much anywhere I seem to use these things. Wrestling with a transmission or whatever would freak me out with stands close together. Probably because I’m not so good at math. . .
 

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tj@steeda

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Snaproll,

You are close to our Pompano Beach, FL location - if you are in the area, consider this an open invite to come by & check them out!

TJ
 

Epiphany

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You guys are great at math. And I like a good internet battle. :) But I think the real problem is on an uneven surface, like at the track or my driveway or pretty much anywhere I seem to use these things. Wrestling with a transmission or whatever would freak me out with stands close together. Probably because I’m not so good at math. . .
Overkill can save lives when the unexpected suddenly hits. And probably the one time redundancy is actually welcomed - when it comes to safety.
 

snaproll

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Snaproll,

You are close to our Pompano Beach, FL location - if you are in the area, consider this an open invite to come by & check them out!

TJ
Thank you TJ. I know where you are, been there, started off racing Burnett’s Steeda CMC car and even have your parts on front and back of my current race car. :first:

But I do think you should consider offering those things full length. :cheers:
 

tj@steeda

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Thank you TJ. I know where you are, been there, started off racing Burnett’s Steeda CMC car and even have your parts on front and back of my current race car. :first:

But I do think you should consider offering those things full length. :cheers:
We appreciate your feedback & support.

Currently, there are no plans to change the design.

Best Regards,

TJ
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