Tune Alternatives

[MENTION=26348]Spykexx[/MENTION] Thanks. I think on the AP it is Ignition Timing Cyl1. Ignition Correction is how much timing is pulled during each knock count for a particular cylinder (how many times a particular cylinder knocked). I will add ignition timing, knock count and ignition correction (all for Cyl1) to my AP as safety monitors (next to Octane Adjust Ratio that I already have).

Any idea on what the range of the value for ignition timing for our cars should be? I guess it depends on several factors, such as the tune, the driving conditions, throttle position, ambient/intake/charge air temperatures, etc., but I would like to have a rough idea on what I should expect to see. By the way, I am Adam tuned on 93+ oct.

MakStang said:

Great info. I also got very similar results to you guys with the cp-e DeltaCore intercooler on a 92 degrees day, although I did not datalog.

Joe which data monitor do you use to get the reading on timing? I would like to have this on my AP as well.

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I'm pretty sure Spykexx got it correct, on the SCT it's spark advance which is timing. I'm not sure what is best on the AP, when I used that, I never really found one that showed me anything meaningful. Not to say there isn't one, there was a lot to pick from. Ignition corrections just say how much does it need to vary from the table values which doesn't really tell me as much without knowing what's in the tables.

Thanks Joe. I thought that you had an AP, but I just remembered that you are on the FP tune. Anyway, as I said above, on the AP the relevant value seems to be ignition timing.

MakStang said:

Thanks Joe. I thought that you had an AP, but I just remembered that you are on the FP tune. Anyway, as I said above, on the AP the relevant value seems to be ignition timing.

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Sorry brother I use SCT so I was just trying to go by memory. Reading through this article from Cobb would point that Ignition corrections is the one you want. It works just like the SCT, but instead of multiplying against the Knock sensor table it multiplies against the OAR table. You have to remember (It can get confusing especially when reading it in realtime) corrections can be good and bad. They can be negative (Adding) or positive (Pulling). A negative OAR, (which -1.0 is the limit for 93 octane+) multiplied by say...-5 corrections would result in a positive degree.

https://www.cobbtuning.com/ford-ecoboost-and-the-octane-adjust-ratio-monitor/

HOW IT ALL WORKS

From the factory, Ford typically designs the base calibration to allow use of 87+ octane fuel and recommends using 91+ octane fuel for optimal power. They can do this by means of a dynamic multiplier that allows for adjustment of each of these targeting and limiting strategies which we call the “OAR” (Octane Adjust Ratio). The OAR starts life at a value of 0.0 and is allowed to learn in two directions. When fuel quality and knock sensor feedback are optimal, the OAR will adjust towards -1.0. When these are sub-optimal, the OAR will adjust towards +1.0. I bet you’re wondering why -1.0 is better?
Well for one, since this value is a multiplier and not an offset the ECU code can be optimized to use a single table comprised of negative values to handle the spectrum of operating conditions. Take ignition timing corrections for example; with an OAR at -1.0, multiplying against a negative becomes positive which is then added as positive correction to ignition timing. However, when conditions are sub-par a +1.0 OAR will result in negative correction to ignition timing.

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Now "ignition timing" could be a cumulative of this...but I don't feel that it's nearly as useful as seeing what what corrections are being made to make that timing. Your timing will greatly vary on MANY variables...but if you are wanting to know how much timing is being pulled/added due to octane/knock this is the way to go and is more useful knowledge. (BTW your OAR also is adjusted by knock events.) I'm not finding any information of people using ignition timing on AP. What I mean by this is you may see an ignition timing of say +20*...but what is getting there. Is timing being pulled from +22* and pulling power? Or should base be +18* but you are adding +2* of timing?

^ this is why I am so befuddled by the fact that my Knock Sensor PID is sticking at zero. I cannot see whether I'm adding or pulling timing due to corrections.

Thanks, great info. I guess then, as I said above, it's best to have all three data monitors (or PIDs as you call them): ignition timing, knock count and ignition correction, next to the OAR. I am however also confused by the fact that knock count on the Accessport is stuck to zero... I guess it's a good thing? :shrug:

By the way, apart from monitoring some safety parameters, I also simply wanted to monitor the ignition timing (spark advance) of my car, in order to get an idea on these values, just for my own information.

Hey guys. I had a question for those of you that know about ign corr oar and timing on these engines. I'm tuned by Adam, and I regularly see a minimum value of -2.0, -1.0 or so for ignition correction on cyl 1 with my oar at -1. I always hear how you want to keep the ignition correction in the positive end so I always worry when I see the negative correction numbers. Granted, I believe the negative numbers only happen while sitting in traffic, not in WOT pulls. Is it normal to see a minimum of a low negative number for ignition correction on your AP while daily driving?

Jonahbonah said:

Hey guys. I had a question for those of you that know about ign corr oar and timing on these engines. I'm tuned by Adam, and I regularly see a minimum value of -2.0, -1.0 or so for ignition correction on cyl 1 with my oar at -1. I always hear how you want to keep the ignition correction in the positive end so I always worry when I see the negative correction numbers. Granted, I believe the negative numbers only happen while sitting in traffic, not in WOT pulls. Is it normal to see a minimum of a low negative number for ignition correction on your AP while daily driving?

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Read what I posted earlier like 4 posts ago in here. You want a negative correction not positive. A positive is pulling timing. It's a multiplicative table. So (-1.0 oar) * (-2.0 timing) = 2 degrees of advance. Where if one of those numbers was positive it would end in a negative addition (pulling timing)

Many timing tables are this way and can be confusing at first. This comes straight from accessport themselves in that article. Even linked it.

I think I disagree. On the Accessport, negative timing correction values seem to mean pulling timing and positive seem to mean adding timing. Look for this text in the following link:

https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wi...bile?contentId=30900388#content/view/30900388

"Negative timing corrections should remain as minimal as possible, with that said small negative timing corrections are a part of the ST's elaborate ignition control strategy. When logging all cylinders corrections under full throttle, consistent negative corrections across multiple cylinders or incremental corrections indicate excessive engine noise and is a sign that the map might be too aggressive for the mechanical condition of your vehicle."

Also go at the end of the first post in the following thread, where you will see that removing (pulling) timing is given by a negative number in ignition timing correction (-2.5 degrees in that case) using the Accessport.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...t-data-from-COBB?p=46220&viewfull=1#post46220

There is also a wonderful article that explains all this in detail:

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/unde...ons-in-your-high-performance-ecoboost-engine/

Maybe I understand it the wrong way, but the ignition timing correction on the Accessport seems to mean "pulling timing" when it is negative and "adding timing" when positive. Maybe the negative values you refer to are "hidden values" inside the tables used by the ECU itself for the purpose of making all sorts of sophisticated calculations. The output on the Accessport (what we actually read on the screen) is a different story.

Excuse me if I am wrong, but this is how I understand it after doing some search on the interned. :shrug:

Maybe someone with experience on the Accessport can jump in and contribute to this issue. The best person to help would be Adam [MENTION=19118]Tune+[/MENTION]. Adam can you jump in?

^^^ OK, I just confirmed the above. I drove my car for a little less than an hour after adding those data monitors on the Accessport. I saw no knock count and only positive Ignition Corrections on Cylinder 1. I also had ignition timing as a data monitor on the AP and every time there was a positive correction, I saw an increase in timing.

So [MENTION=28932]Jonahbonah[/MENTION], depending on how often you see these negative corrections, it might be a good idea to contact Adam and let him know. I am also Adam tuned and I haven't seen any negative corrections so far.

The Ford Tune for me was very noticeable over stock. I am very use to though after 4 months of use and I find the 0-60 a little too flat off the line after comparing it to what ive seen on you tube. Then again, like you said, it won't be shooting 10 psi at 1500-2500 rpm. It really shines over 3000 rpm and it pulls a lot more at 4500-5500 and does not fall off completely at 6000rpm like the base but it does not pull harder either.

I don't think you will see a whole lot more power up top without some kind of turbo mod like vargas, actuator, or a complete new larger turbo set up. The low to mid range is where the 3rd parties really shine when you will need better tires and suspension for traction.

Anyway, to come back to your original question: yes you need an updated intercooler to get the maximum out of a tune. There is plenty of choices out there. I went with the cp-e DeltaCore intercooler, great piece of equipment.

Also my car is tuned by Adam [MENTION=19118]Tune+[/MENTION] (www.adamtuned.com). Couldn't be more happy! To get an idea, go to the following thread and read post 486 (my post) onwards. My car is a beast after Adam tuned it. Trust me, you won't regret it.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34254&page=33

Negative corrections on light throttle is common and a good thing, the PCM is always playing with the timing to get the optimal advance and determine what fuel you have in it. It adds little bits of timing until it detects knock, you are not under major load or boost so that tiny knock won't hurt a thing, once it hits knock it will pull a degree or two then start the process again.
Igniton corrections are the best way to monitor knock on the AP, on WOT you should have all positive corrections, if you don't you may have some bad gas, if you always get negative corrections you need to contact your tuner.

In Germany they have strict fuel controls and i always have positive corrections with my Tune+ tune, on E30 it's +5s across the board which tells me Adam is being a bit conservative with it which is fine by me, I will happily trade 10-15 hp for the knowledge that it will never knock, ever.

[MENTION=16952]Glenn G[/MENTION] always to the point!

Thanks to all - I've enjoy the discussion and learned a bit. I'll be sticking with the stock FMIC for now and running the Cobb AP OTS tunes. I'm not looking to get every bit of performance with a tune. This is my 100 mile a day commuter car. Better drivability, and a little more lower end. I'm seldom WOT. I also do not plan on keeping the car more than another two years, and only driving it 6-7 months out of the year, I can't justify the expense for that short of time. New tires have just burnt a hole in my wallet!