BASE GT BRAKES SUCK

[ZanarkO]

And maybe im being biased here but seriously the entire kit for the 6 piston set up is a grand. A grand. and you want to spend how much on rotors and track pads? I love the fact you guys are sharing this information but seriously come on. From a pricing stand point and as far as resale goes its a no brainer. you can literally buy the 6 piston set up run it for as long as you want resale for 600 bucks.

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[ZanarkO]

Also I want to mention I didn't make a post asking what was better to run lol. I literally just made a post stating the base gt brakes suck in my opinion. There was no if this then that involved.

 

[GTP]

And maybe im being biased here but seriously the entire kit for the 6 piston set up is a grand. A grand. and you want to spend how much on rotors and track pads? I love the fact you guys are sharing this information but seriously come on. From a pricing stand point and as far as resale goes its a no brainer. you can literally buy the 6 piston set up run it for as long as you want resale for 600 bucks.

And I would argue that 4-pot brakes, with high-quality track pads, fresh fluid (even OEM), and cooling ducts will perform superior to the brembo setup with no other mods.

please tell me how you plan on running the cooling duct kits on a base Gt brake set up? The back plate literally blocks the path and theres no way to attach them.

Look, my point is that the weakness of the GT Premium brake system with 4-pot front calipers is NOT the calipers, but the pads, and lack of augmented cooling.

Cooling ducts are superior to the air vanes that come with the PP front arms. The dust plate is replaced by theirs that accepts the new hose. (The plates in the picture below are at a weird angle so that they don't even look like plates.)

 

[Norm Peterson]

please tell me how you plan on running the cooling duct kits on a base Gt brake set up? The back plate literally blocks the path and theres no way to attach them.

Dust shields can be modified with a hole cut to suit a short length of tubing of appropriate diameter. That's what the people who sell dust shields ready-made for hose attachment either do themselves in-house or contract others to do for them.

Something like this that I did for the little 12.4" brakes my car came with, showing a false start or two, messy MIG-welds and all. Must have helped, because I was able to actually crack XP10 track pads without ever losing braking performance.

The car now wears much nicer dust shields with 3" inlets (Vorshlag).


Norm

 

[Performance nut]

And maybe im being biased here but seriously the entire kit for the 6 piston set up is a grand. A grand. and you want to spend how much on rotors and track pads? I love the fact you guys are sharing this information but seriously come on. From a pricing stand point and as far as resale goes its a no brainer. you can literally buy the 6 piston set up run it for as long as you want resale for 600 bucks.

Not everyone is comfortable changing out an entire brake system. Some rather make minor changes if they can get it to perform well. Also realize that the bigger the components, the more weight you are adding. Not to say the additional weight is huge, just a factor. Lastly, if you upgrade calipers, you have to consider wheels. Not everyone is ready to drop cash for calipers, rotors, pads, wheels, and tires. I have the stock 18" wheels that can't clear PP calipers.

 

[draconis123]

Not everyone is comfortable changing out an entire brake system. Some rather make minor changes if they can get it to perform well. Also realize that the bigger the components, the more weight you are adding. Not to say the additional weight is huge, just a factor. Lastly, if you upgrade calipers, you have to consider wheels. Not everyone is ready to drop cash for calipers, rotors, pads, wheels, and tires. I have the stock 18" wheels that can't clear PP calipers.

+1 on this.

I eventually will get project 6gr wheels but would still use my base wheels for winter. Unless there is some way to make it fit there will be sometime before I get the 6pot.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Not everyone is comfortable changing out an entire brake system. Some rather make minor changes if they can get it to perform well.

This ↑↑↑ .

And if you choose to follow that path for any reason, keep your own growth as a track driver in mind along the way.

I told myself in the beginning that I'd upgrade pads for the OE calipers when there was any hint that I might be starting to ask too much of them. That's sticking with OE size rotors, replacing those as necessary because of either wear or heat checking that failed the fingernail test. FWIW, Hawks to Carbotech XP8's to XP10's to XP12's.

Along the way I told myself that I'd upgrade calipers and rotor diameter if and when I felt I was about to outgrow XP12's. This is on street tires rather than R-comps.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Iirc, the GT 4-piston and PP 6-piston brakes use the same pad compound and have the same bias, despite the PP having more pistons and a larger 15" rotor.

If you took a 4-piston and mounted it on a 15" rotor, you'll change your brake bias due to the larger lever arm the caliper has on the wheel. In order for a 6-piston to maintain the same bias as the smaller rotor/4-piston caliper, it needs smaller pistons. So the 6 pistons are smaller than the pistons in the 4-pot caliper to achieve the same bias and thus, you will not "feel" much of a difference.

So if the GT & PP have the same bias and pad compound, what is the benefit?

Surface area. The GTPP has a significantly larger pad. If X amount of clamping force is necessary (say 1,000psi) to lock a tire with the 4-piston brakes, that 1,000psi is spread over a larger surface on the 6-piston pad and there is more pad surface area and volume to dissipate heat before it fades.

In reality, if a 4-piston brake needs 1,000psi, the 6-piston with it's larger 15" rotor needs less pressure to achieve the same wheel torque due to it's larger lever arm.

So, the 6-piston needs less pressure to lock a tire due to it's larger lever arm (= less heat), it has more pad surface area to dissipate heat and clamping force (= less heat), and it has a larger rotor to act as a larger heat sink to dissipate heat through (= less heat). All of this helps to reduce heat in the pad and caliper which delays brake fade.

It's not necessary to "upgrade" calipers on a base GT street car, and most track amateurs would probably not need much more than a fluid upgrade. From there you need to ask yourself if you want the added bite and fade resistance of a more track focused pad and the cost of that vs the GTPP brakes, which are a hell of a deal and allow you to keep street pads on the car the entire time. You'd be hard pressed to fade a GTPP car with upgraded fluid unless you're a more advanced driver on a heavy braking track.

Again, the GTPP is a hell of a deal, but not necessary for everyone.

 

[BmacIL]

Iirc, the GT 4-piston and PP 6-piston brakes use the same pad compound and have the same bias, despite the PP having more pistons and a larger 15" rotor.

If you took a 4-piston and mounted it on a 15" rotor, you'll change your brake bias due to the larger lever arm the caliper has on the wheel. In order for a 6-piston to maintain the same bias as the smaller rotor/4-piston caliper, it needs smaller pistons. So the 6 pistons are smaller than the pistons in the 4-pot caliper to achieve the same bias and thus, you will not "feel" much of a difference.

So if the GT & PP have the same bias and pad compound, what is the benefit?

Surface area. The GTPP has a significantly larger pad. If X amount of clamping force is necessary (say 1,000psi) to lock a tire with the 4-piston brakes, that 1,000psi is spread over a larger surface on the 6-piston pad and there is more pad surface area and volume to dissipate heat before it fades.

In reality, if a 4-piston brake needs 1,000psi, the 6-piston with it's larger 15" rotor needs less pressure to achieve the same wheel torque due to it's larger lever arm.

So, the 6-piston needs less pressure to lock a tire due to it's larger lever arm (= less heat), it has more pad surface area to dissipate heat and clamping force (= less heat), and it has a larger rotor to act as a larger heat sink to dissipate heat through (= less heat). All of this helps to reduce heat in the pad and caliper which delays brake fade.

It's not necessary to "upgrade" calipers on a base GT street car, and most track amateurs would probably not need much more than a fluid upgrade. From there you need to ask yourself if you want the added bite and fade resistance of a more track focused pad and the cost of that vs the GTPP brakes, which are a hell of a deal and allow you to keep street pads on the car the entire time. You'd be hard pressed to fade a GTPP car with upgraded fluid unless you're a more advanced driver on a heavy braking track.

Again, the GTPP is a hell of a deal, but not necessary for everyone.

They are definitely not the same compound, and if you look at the pads, the 6 piston pads are only marginally larger surface area. The main difference in performance is the larger rotor (more brake torque) the pad compound (quite a bit higher friction at all temps, and keeps it well at elevated temps) and the stiffer caliper with more pistons that improve feel and pad wear, along with heat capacity.

It is not hard to get the four piston setup to outperform the GT PP brembos as stock. A good track pad and fluid will do that.

 

[GTP]

It is not hard to get the four piston setup to outperform the GT PP brembos as stock. A good track pad and fluid will do that.

Which is what I already claimed.

Have a look at OPMustang pad choices. They show the temp ranges. Lower temp street pads last longer, less dust, but won't survive track day.

 

[Eritas]

They are definitely not the same compound, and if you look at the pads, the 6 piston pads are only marginally larger surface area. The main difference in performance is the larger rotor (more brake torque) the pad compound (quite a bit higher friction at all temps, and keeps it well at elevated temps) and the stiffer caliper with more pistons that improve feel and pad wear, along with heat capacity.

It is not hard to get the four piston setup to outperform the GT PP brembos as stock. A good track pad and fluid will do that.

Do you know that for a fact?

I wouldn't call a 10-20% increase in pad volume 'marginal' by any means.

 

[BmacIL]

Do you know that for a fact?

I wouldn't call a 10-20% increase in pad volume 'marginal' by any means.

Yes I do know that they're not the same compound. Even if you didn't believe that, here's an irrefutable fact: the base brakes have nowhere near the dust of the brembos. It's not even close. The same compound would dust similarly.

10%, yes, particularly when you can get the brake torque required by changing to a higher friction compound. Of course, on the same compound the brembos are going to outperform the 4 piston Conti calipers and corresponding rotors. No disagreement there. The point is that you don't have to toss your 14" rotors and 4 piston fixed calipers to have a good track setup.

 

[Eritas]

Yes I do know that they're not the same compound. Even if you didn't believe that, here's an irrefutable fact: the base brakes have nowhere near the dust of the brembos. It's not even close. The same compound would dust similarly.

Fair enough. :cheers:

10%, yes, particularly when you can get the brake torque required by changing to a higher friction compound. Of course, on the same compound the brembos are going to outperform the 4 piston Conti calipers and corresponding rotors. No disagreement there. The point is that you don't have to toss your 14" rotors and 4 piston fixed calipers to have a good track setup.

Agreed on the stock 4-pistons being easily capable of holding up to track use.

However, brake torque alone isn't the issue since the stock 4-piston calipers can lock a tire at 100mph+. The issue is operating temperature of the pad. The 6-piston GTPP has a larger pad surface area and rotor to dissipate heat. On top of that, if the GTPP's pad has a higher operating range, then it will further widen the gap to the base GT's pad.

More aggressive track pads have more torque, but the key is their higher operating (temp) range. You could put a pad with an extremely high coefficient of friction on you car, but if it overheats at 400*F, then it's useless because of FADE (due to small operating temp), not because of outright higher torque due to higher mu.

 

[Optimum Performance]

You can spend less than $600 on a pad and brake cooling upgrade which is less than $1000 brake upgrade. Run any 18" wheel on the market. Not including brake fluid upgrade because it would be done with either system. Brake cooling is still needed on PP Brakes so figuring that into the cost to upgrade you are at less than $300 on the Base GT brakes to have very good track braking. Again, consumables over time will be less, pads, rotors, tires, wheels etc. With open wheel choices comes lower weights, and the base GT brakes are much lighter than PP Brakes. PP 6 Piston Brembos come with DS2500 pads from the factory. The base GT brakes do not use the same compound/vendor.

 

[F0J]

Shedding weight on the car will also help brake performance. Admittedly, weight mods quickly run quite a bit more expensive then the OEM "Brembo" kit. Tires are a factor too, more grip means more heat (from the little I know). Also, and this is from a rough analysis, the loose front end on the base GT might use up the front brakes more than the rears on the stiffer PP because the front sees more load.

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